B&W Reversal Processing Controls

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holmburgers

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Howdy all,

Having recently discovered the joys of reversal processing black and white film, I'm interested to know more about the controls available.

I'm wondering how to affect contrast, speed and the color; specifically the former two.

Any information, links, books, texts, etc. would be most appreciated. I'm heading to the library soon to see what I can find.

I'm thinking that there's got to be some great old books directed at cinematography in ye olden days that would have lots of information about this.

I've got some leads, but could use some more.

Thanks!
 

johnielvis

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more contrast--less exposure-more development---you'll get less dmax though.....less contrast---super exposure,less development---my experience
 
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holmburgers

holmburgers

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Which developer? First I guess?
 
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Which developer?

I believe the first developer is going to be where you have the most control over your slides. I think the jist of johnielvis' response is to push the film if you want more contrast and pull it if you want less contrast.

I wont be able to do much testing in the next few weeks because I'll be studying for final exams and finishing a research project. If you dinbt mind waiting till the second week of may for a test from me, you might want to test this out on your own :D

You should be able to adjust contrast without changing the exposure by adjusting the first development time. I dont know how much the dmax will be affected, but I cant imagine it varying too much unless you're doing extreme things with exposure and development
 

brucemuir

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Contrast was my main issue when I first started playing with reversal about a year back.
Not enough.
I shot some TMX and some TRIX/AP 400

I'm definitely interested in this discussion regarding recommended films for a deep rich black. (is it all in the processing?)

I need to get back to the testing on this.
 
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holmburgers

holmburgers

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I'm mostly interested in getting my head around the whole reversal "system" since at the moment I don't really have any need to change my procedure. But, I definitely will experiment in the future; changing only 1 variable at a time.

So, if pushing/pulling changes Dmax, I wonder if lower hypo levels in the 1st dev can help to counteract that (maybe not, since I think it would have little effect on areas of heavy halide density). What about adding a restrainer for instance?

I'd like to use exactly the same general procedure and chemicals, but investiage what is possible by adjusting times and concentrations at various stages.

Plus, I like reading... :D
 

Gerald C Koch

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Using sodium sulfide as the second developer will yield sepia colored slides. They have a nice old-fashioned look.
 
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holmburgers

holmburgers

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Thanks Jerry. I just learned that yesterday, thanks to ErikL's slides over on this thread... (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

This older thread has a good discussion about hypo in the first dev, among other things... (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
 
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Contrast was my main issue when I first started playing with reversal about a year back.
Not enough.
I shot some TMX and some TRIX/AP 400

I'm definitely interested in this discussion regarding recommended films for a deep rich black. (is it all in the processing?)

I need to get back to the testing on this.

Could overexposure or overdevelopment have been a problem? MAybe development can alter the Dmax more than I think it can. :\
 

brucemuir

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Could overexposure or overdevelopment have been a problem? MAybe development can alter the Dmax more than I think it can. :\

I only ran maybe 3 rolls & I bracketed EI but I was never happy with my blacks.

The lighting was overcast in a few tests so that probably has something to do with it.

The entire process is just sinking into my head, (ie cause/effect) so it gets confusing somettimes :whistling:

I need to dig out my notes and do some more testing.
Everyones results here in the last few posts look better that what I was getting.
 
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holmburgers

holmburgers

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I compared my reversal processed slides to a dr5 slide and the difference is huge. The dr5 blacks are impressive, mine are grey.

There's definitely work to be done.
 
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I compared my reversal processed slides to a dr5 slide and the difference is huge. The dr5 blacks are impressive, mine are grey.

There's definitely work to be done.

I've been happy with my blacks so far. Maybe I'm not being picky enough about the quality of my slides. I'm tempted to send a roll to Dr5 to compare with my own now. Hopefully I can get around to shooting a test roll soon between study breaks or something :D
 
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I know what you mean, I'm still happy with my results as well. Maybe they're not perfect, but they're still beautiful. Here is some perspective from PE... (this thread (there was a url link here which no longer exists) )

All reversal first developers and also reversal color developers are very complex beasts. They are not the simple things we think they are if we really want to do an exemplary job, but many times a quick and dirty formula works. If we were to compare the Q&D with the right developer, the difference in quality might astound you. That is why I am so against single stimulus results that "look fine" to the naked eye.

I thought mine looked good, but comparing it directly to the dr5 was humbling :wink:
 

vencahaus

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i did a lot of testing as well and i got the only clue: control the contrast by the choice of film

most of the films has very low contrast (good for negative, bad for slide) but there are some exceptions like Rollei films or TechPan etc...
you just have to calibrate your process for two different films and that's it...

i dont thing there's a lot of scope for pushing in BW reversal, pushing can really lower D-max of the positive
 
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holmburgers

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This is from J.S. Friedman's History of Color Photography, chapter 'Processing Screen Plates', page 179 (on google books I think)

...But since we are concerend with the technique from a practical point of view, we will discuss the disclosures of P.K. Turner, who made a special study of the working conditions best suited for reversal (Brit. J. Photo., Vol. 84 (1937, pp. 435, 449, 465). The problem that confronts the technician is best explained by Mr. Lloyd E. Varden (J.S. Friedman, Am. Phot., VOl. 33 (1938), p. 283)...

He goes on to say that there are 4 methods available in reversal processing; 1) controlled time of 1st dev, 2) controlled exposure to light after reversal, 3) controlled 2nd dev, 4) use of a special type of first developer. He goes on to say that techniques 1-3 are too difficult to employ, etc., read the book for in depth discussion, but says that the last technique, special 1st dev, remains available for the average technician. This is the technique used by Autochrome and Dufaycolor. Details given on p. 180.

The effect of adding silver halide solvents to a developer, was studied by H.D. Murray and D.A. Spencer (Phot. J., Vol. 77 (1937), pp. 330, 458)...

Of course there are lots of specifics, but I'm just providing references at the moment.

I think to say that the only way to 'control contrast is by the choice of film' might be an oversimplification. At least I hope so... What kind of testing did you do?
 

vencahaus

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i've just tried a lot of things :smile: ...many different films, devs, both bleach solutions etc...

you are right, it's really an oversimplification, but the process is really complex, has a lot of variables and all the testing is time and money consuming activity... :smile:

it's necessary to do a lot of tests anyway before you get some good results and the externality gain is that you can easily diagnose problems when they come, but I pretty sure that it's really hard to get on the level where you can control the contrast on one film...

but:1) the use of two films with different inherent contrast is great simplification, isn't it?
2) there's actually not so much need to control the contrast on slides... the dynamic range is much wider than that of a paper photo...

it may be just my own point of view, of course
 
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holmburgers

holmburgers

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I understand what you're saying, I'm sure a lot of the inherent contrast is due to the film. This isn't VC paper afterall :wink:

But, I guess what I'm most interested in and meaning by 'contrast' is high Dmax, and good gradation to Dmin. Perhaps it was poor choice of words on my part.
 

vencahaus

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ok, you're talking about "tuning" the process in terms of contrast... :smile:

well, there are some things that can help:
rinse - its really important to rinse enough, all the consequent solutions are doing the opposite job..namely 1st dev vs. bleach, clearing bath vs. 2nd dev.

too much time in 1st dev is not good - the curve of max contrast is not monotone, it goes down after reaching some "golden" point

most of the films are really too flat - they are meant to be great negatives, not positive, there are some ortho films and special purpose films that are great

some halide solvent (potassium thioncyanate) in first dev may improve the contrast by so called physical developement, i did not experiment with this enough, though
 
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Great points here. Particularly rinsing and the "golden point"... it'd be interesting to take 3 identical exposures and 1st dev. them for 8, 12, and 15 minutes respectively (for example).

Could you elaboroate on what exactly you mean by the curve of max contrast is "not monotone"?

Also, the physical development idea is very interesting to me, and I think that this is often overlooked or misunderstood. That is certainly the case for me. To be honest, I don't fully understand what physical development is.
 

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when you develop the film, both highlights and shadows are developed at first (contrast does not rise too much and that's how pull process works), after that shadows slow down its development and only highlights develop... contrast grows (that's what happen with push) but after some time when highlight are "fully" developed, both shadows and everything else becomes developed again (because of some latent fogging and these things) so contrast goes down... you can see it in hd curves in tech sheet of reversal films)

physical development happens when solved particles of silver recollect on developed parts of the film, grrr I don't know English for chemistry (and chemistry neither :smile: ) so you'd better google it :smile:

i'm not sure if it happens with hypo, but it definitely works with that rhodanide
 
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Thank you, that makes sense about contrast.

Also, I think I know what you're getting at with physical development... but I'll be damned if I try to explain it. I did read that potassium thiocyanate is the preferred solvent.
 

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you gots to experiment---TRY this--TMY-400 @ ei 50, first dev = d-19 1:1 cut from stock dev mixed powder---10' at 75 degrees....that's your first dev...save this developer for the second development unless you got tons to waste.....this should give you a nice looking complexion----shoot it with a strobe/metered with incidend flashmeter......develop....stop....bleach....clear....rinse...REEXPOSE....like 2' or so....dump in the developer and WATCH it develop...develop with agitation for 5' in the re-cycled developer----


OH---it'll have a yellowish tinge to it---you need to FIX this to get rid of the residual undeveloped silver halide---particulary tmax-400---fixing makes it colder toned and brighter.

want more contrast--expose less, develop more (1st dev) BUT...now you'll be deveoping fog---and this will bleach out and reduce dmax (max blacks)---OR----here's a trick---good olde ferricyanide bleach to the rescue---it's like developing by inspection!!!!! expose at say ei 200...develop as above---it'll dry DARK....THEN...put in farmers reducer---use about 5mg/litre concentration of ferricyanide...mix 1:1 with pure hypo...and dunk it on in...submerge it---best to do in a GLASS tray so you can watch the bleaching action---at 5mg/l...about maybe 5' will produce repeatable results---it takes away dmax, but pretty much imperceptably...you get a nice higher contrast faster speed transparency. you can take out of the bleach and dry it before it's "done"...do it in stages to get experience---they dry DARKER than they look both when first processing and when bleaching.

I have not tried intensification yet---I want to try that using silver intensifier----

BUT if you develop it so it's DARK, you can then use ferricyanide bleach to "develop by inspection" in the daylight---which is how you want to do it to see how the bleaching goes. you can experiment with bleach concentrations too...more aggressive/less aggressive concentrations...I'd say stick to ONE and get used to how it works.
 
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holmburgers

holmburgers

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Haist

Last night I picked up Haist's Modern Photographic Processing from the Kansas University's Art Library, specifically Vol. II which covers reversal processing. What a book! I also picked up Wall & Jordan's Photographic Facts and formulas, also worth a read.

If you are remotely serious about RPing, read this chapter by Haist. It was an absolute eye-opener and is by far the most comprehensive discussion available, and it's fairly easy reading to boot.

I'll try to summarize the most pertinent stuff.

1ST DEVELOPMENT

The most surprising and enlightening thing learned is that Haist considers the 1st developer and the 1st rinse to be "the 2 critical processing steps of reversal processing, determing the photographic quality of the positives." The rinse is important because the active alkaline developer continues for a short time in the rinse bath, giving "desirable edge effects". Or, this can be eliminated/curbed by a stop bath, or probably by a more immediate and vigorous rinse.

That being said, nearly all control has been affected by the time the film enters the bleach bath.

The recommended 1st developer is Kodak D-67, which is identical to D-19 with the addition of 3mL/L of 51% liquid sodium thiocyanate. Wall/Jordan second this recommendation. Basically a hydroquinone developer with a smidgen of "metol of phenidone" (plus other important things that I forget at the moment) is ideal. Phillip T. Jones (?) thought this was too contrasy and proposed a 2-part developer that is available in Haist.

This silver-solvent is by all accounts very important in the 1st developer for results that are 'par excellence'. Haist and Wall/Jordan lay it out quite clearly, better than I can do. But basically, it has to do with physical development. Potassium thiocyanate is the preferred solvent at 0.2% according to Wall/Jordan and at 0.5% according to Haist. Above 5g/L and density goes down, below 5g/L and ISO drops and you get longer development times.

Contrary to popular formulas, hypo is not considered to be very good, resulting in lost shadow density.

Alternatively, "a more caustic developer like D-88 or D-8 permits shorter times, 10min @ 68°." This requires no silver solvent, and thus can be reused as the 2nd developer.

As for development time, here is a quote from Haist, "1st development, although not carried to completion is usually sufficiently long so that the contrast of the image is no longer increasing rapidly w/ time. Film emulsion speed, as determined by the least exposure to give clean highlights in the positive image, does not change appreciably w/ small variations in developing time. Thus there is some tolerance in the amount of 1st development caused by agitation, temperature and solution-exhaustion variations, but such deviations from normal must be minimized."

If shadow dMax is low, could be too much 1st developing, and vice versa (excessive density in positive = not enough 1st dev.)

Increased time in 1st dev. (pushing) can increase highlight film speed, but w/ a reduction in the dMax of the positive.

BLEACH

I paid greater attention to dichromate bleaches, so I recommend users interested in permanganate bleaches to consult the book. Interestingly enough, there is a 3rd option for a bleach, using ceric sulfate. Apparently it is expensive though, but interesting nonetheless.

A dichromate bleach of 0.5% P.D. & 0.5% sulfuric acid should have done its job in 1 minute, and the time should not exceed 3 minutes. IIRC, permanganate bleaches should not exceed 4 minutes.

For some films, a blacker tone & better tone gradation may be achieved w/ permanganate over dichromate.

Old dichromate bleaches can redeposit chromium and silver if the pH increases, which happens with exhaustion. This can result in stained highlights in the positive. It is minimized by using the lowest necessary 2nd light exposure, since these chromium/silver particles are light sensitive, but to a lesser degree than the silver-halide. If they aren't made developable, they will just simply fix out in the fixer. Also, reconstituting the bleach by the addition of sulfuric acid will do the trick.

Permanganate bleaches have no keeping abilities.

CLEAR

Wall & Jordan say to use a 9% sodium-sulfite clearing bath, and to avoid white light and times longer than 2 minutes because this bath tends to dissolve silver halide and thus you get a thin positive. Haist seconds the notion of dissolving silver halide, but suggests at 5% solution of sodium-sulfite or ideally a 1% solution, if time permits. Of course, sulfite only applies to dichromate bleaches. But the concentraions for bisulfite and metabisulfite are similar IIRC.

FOGGING

Sorry, I didn't record anything about fogging developers or the like. But, for light re-exposure, a recommended quantity in some old movie-film formulas was 800 fc/sec. Basically, re-expose sufficiently, but don't go bonkers with excessive light amounts.

2ND DEVELOPMENT

Any vigorous b&w negative developer, such as D-19, is suggested by Wall & Jordan. A small amount of anti-foggant (benzotriazole) will avoid stain and brighten highlights.

Haist says that good developers include D-72, D-8 and D-19. Bad developers include D-76, DK-50 and any warmtone paper developers.

FIX

Do it. Hardening fixers are not a bad idea, since the gelatin has been stressed in the bleach and with 2 developers.

--------------------------

Lastly;

dMax should preferably be at least 2.0, more like 2.2-2.4, with densities greater than 2.4 not contributing significantly to perceived density.

Haist says that thick emulsion layers w/ high silver coverage (like Tri-X) have been found difficult to RP. Also, fine grain, thin emulsions (Panatomic-X) may not have enough silver halide left for the 2nd developer to produce good density. Mind you, this is from 1979, so I'm not sure what films this might mean today.

The only wash that is critical is the 1st rinse, as described above. Other rinses will ensure longer solution life and will minimize inconsistencies but are less critical in terms of the final outcome.
 
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holmburgers

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Wondering if anyone found this summary useful, and if so, what might you be doing differently in your next process?

I'm gonna switch to one of the thiocyanates for silver solvent, and obvserve some of the more esoteric rules listed, particularly the emphasis on 1st rinse.

Also, are there any other developers that come to mind that fit the above requirements? I could post a more comprehensive set of requirements for the developer if anyone is interested, or I could post the 2-part as well.

I find it interesting that D-19 is so highly recommended, Ilford's "equivalent" being Phenisol, and yet in Ilford's RP pdf they don't recommend it. Additionally, they recommend hypo, by all accounts an inferior solvent. But perhaps they are trying to make it as easy as possible, without the need to buy more obscure things.
 
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