Aquiring CD-3 in Europe and ECN-2 at home.

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VPooler

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Hello!

Me and my friend are planning to start using motion picture stock for our color photography needs - we both have a 400' roll of 500T waiting for action. Remjet removal is not an issue but however developing is. We could settle for the hue shifts and instability caused by C41 processing but since mixing up our own color developer is quite economical and we have source for bleach and fix and stabilizer, then why not take full advantage of the emulsion and do ECN2.
Now, the key ingredient as you all know is CD-3, which can be obtained at Artcraft cheaply BUT since we live in the other side of the ocean, Artcraft does not ship it here (something about ORM-D). Where could we get a supply of it at Europe is the first question here. Kodak would probably gladly sell us some but it comes in 25kg drums which is enough to last us for the coming 400-something years. A bit overkill and we are on a budget here. Long story short - where would one start looking for CD-3 in Europe? Powder form, please, for shelf life.

Second question concerns the shelf life and yield of mixed chemicals. Bleach and fix would be regular C41 ones most likely (or ferricyanide bleach and foma rapid fixer modified for colour use if everything else fails) so the shelf life and yield is known and even better - easily testable and if problems occur, rebleach and refix are easy to do. Stabilizer is also a must, no? Final wash will just do the trick (did not notice a stabilizing step in Kodak documentation)? The concerning part here is the developer - for how long could it last when partially used and stored in an airtight black plastic bottle, filled to the rim? I have heard that ECN developer has no additives to make it last longer like some developers do and if so - could I add something to make it last longer? Plan is to mix up half a liter to liter once a month and just use it as we go. Could be better if one could use it for lets say 2-3 months.
 

AgX

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You also may find this thread interesting:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)



But you will hardly find another source for CD-3 (aside bulk) in Europe than Suvatlar .
 
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VPooler

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I'll look around and hear others, we aim to run our first test strips in a few months. I am currently scavenging for lab equipment and bottles and doing research on the process itself. The low contrast seems even good for scanning since I wont be making RA4 prints anyway directly and I could pull more detail out of the neg. Plus hello - high speed, fine grain tungsten stock! Even the formula for developer seems simple and elegant...well, except for the antifoggant but people tend to skip that anyway.
 

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+1 to Suvatlar, he is the best and most reputable source in Europe for this kind of compound, and he ships at least within EU boundaries, if not beyond. They also have the other chems you will need for this. If something is not on their price list, chances are good that they can source it for you (e. g. AF-9, AF-2000). You can contact Mr. Suvatlar in English language, he usually answers emails within less than 24 hours.

From what I read, the ECN II color developer does contain HAS, which is the preservative, so it should last about as long as C41 color developer, i. e. a few weeks. I recommend you mix only as needed for processing.
 

baachitraka

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+1 for Fototechnik Suvatlar.

I bought chems for Barry Thornton 2 bath. Just write to him and ask for a quotation.
 
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VPooler

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CD3 has been purchased from silverprint. I do plan to use Kodak's published recipe although AF2000 and Anticalcium will be omitted.
There has been discussion about using this recipe over here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
 
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VPooler

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Allright, for the record - Silverprint has run out of CD-3 and they have also discontinued selling it. Got the last 3 packets.
 

Xmas

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Allright, for the record - Silverprint has run out of CD-3 and they have also discontinued selling it. Got the last 3 packets.

Greedy!
They normally sell powders in screw top plastic jars, or 'snap ons' with tamper proof seals
I'll ask can they reconsider next time I'm there...

Noel
 
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VPooler

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We split an order with a friend, the original request was 8! But the 3 should last us half a year, maybe a bit less or more, that gives us time to source and purchase more. I definately am excited about processing ECN.
 

Rudeofus

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I wouldn't worry about the general disappearance of CD-3, though, since it's an essential part of RA4 print process.
 

Jim Taylor

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Humph! That's my source of CD-3 out of the window!! :wink:

I've been looking into giving ECN-2 a go as well. My major concern is addressing the low contrast and saturation issues mentioned in other threads on this topic.

I've read in some of the RA4 threads that 3% H2O2 added to the RA4 dev will increase print contrast, but:
Is that 3% final conc. H2O2 in the RA4 dev?
or
add x amount of 3% H2O2 - in which case, what is the magic 'x'?

Also - what would the H2O2 do to the saturation?

Any ideas?
 

Rudeofus

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I've read in some of the RA4 threads that 3% H2O2 added to the RA4 dev will increase print contrast, but:
Is that 3% final conc. H2O2 in the RA4 dev?
or
add x amount of 3% H2O2 - in which case, what is the magic 'x'?

It is 3% H2O2 that you add (in ml doses) to the RA4 CD. Since 3% H2O2 is moderately easy to get for us mortals, it's a popular choice in these recipes.
 
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VPooler

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Low contrast is not an issue for me since the negs will be scanned in anyway, I won't be doing RA4 myself in the coming years and I will cross that bridge when I get there.
I am sure it won't disappear completely but it will be harder and more expensive to get.
 

JoJo

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I develop Cinefilm in selfmixed ECN-2 developer.
I use the same recipe (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
I bought CD-3 and all other chemicals from Suvatlar.
One important issue is that the developer is only good for some days. So I just mix 500ml and collect 3-4 films to process at the same day. I never tried more than 4 films in the same batch of developer.
The developer is quite cheap and it makes no sense to save at the wrong end and ruin a film with dead developer.
Saturation and contrast can be increased by a longer developing time. This gives a contrast which allows me to print the negatives on RA-4 paper. Cinefilm is very tolerant and you normally don't get blown highlights by overdeveloping. The worst case is, that the orange mask could be a bit darker.
I develop 5 minutes instead of 3.5 minutes. 3.5 minutes is mostly too short with this recipe and gives very thin negatives, which are not printable and even not scannable.
Another guy increased the amount of CD-3 to get higher density with the standard dev time. I never tried that.

I use the bleachfix from C-41.
Finally, I use a stabilizer for E-6 which contains Formaline.

I also tried to process the film in C-41, but was not happy with the results. Strange colors and strong grain.

It would be great to see some of your results.

Joachim
 
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VPooler

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I develop Cinefilm in selfmixed ECN-2 developer.
I use the same recipe (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
I bought CD-3 and all other chemicals from Suvatlar.
One important issue is that the developer is only good for some days. So I just mix 500ml and collect 3-4 films to process at the same day. I never tried more than 4 films in the same batch of developer.
The developer is quite cheap and it makes no sense to save at the wrong end and ruin a film with dead developer.
Saturation and contrast can be increased by a longer developing time. This gives a contrast which allows me to print the negatives on RA-4 paper. Cinefilm is very tolerant and you normally don't get blown highlights by overdeveloping. The worst case is, that the orange mask could be a bit darker.
I develop 5 minutes instead of 3.5 minutes. 3.5 minutes is mostly too short with this recipe and gives very thin negatives, which are not printable and even not scannable.
Another guy increased the amount of CD-3 to get higher density with the standard dev time. I never tried that.

I use the bleachfix from C-41.
Finally, I use a stabilizer for E-6 which contains Formaline.

I also tried to process the film in C-41, but was not happy with the results. Strange colors and strong grain.

It would be great to see some of your results.

Joachim

Suvatlar might be the best but costs more than twice as much as other sources, haven't even dared to ask a shipping quote but when other sources die out...as a poor student I try to cut costs whenever I can, that's why I bother with this whole thing. Okay, pure interest and challenge too, can't stay idle.

The developer should keep for 2 weeks under a floating lid barrel according to Kodak specifications but my idea was yes to process once a month and mix up the minimum amount.

I'd like to keep the contrast and saturation low for maximum control during post processing like in actual motion picture making but thin negatives are not good either. Did you do the prebath or scrub the remjet off between fix and stabilizer? I recall reading about prebath making the film more alkaline thus making development more aggressive and compensating skipping prebath by increasing CD3 from 4g/l to 5.3g/l

CD3 and potassium bromide are currently in the mail and as soon as I finish the exam period at the uni. I'll go on ahead sourcing the sulfite and washing soda. There is also some labware on the way. Should get the ball rolling by the end of February, although I am trying to soup a roll in C41 just for the kicks. Won a roll of Cinestill at Filmsnotdead and trying it out.
 
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VPooler

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To all believers and nonbelievers, I have finished the first roll. Film was some 10 years old and stored hell knows how so there was some fogging. Also cleanliness was an issue, there is some residual remjet that I accidentially rubbed into emulsion but this is a test strip anyway so I dont mind. Lighted with a yellowish floodlight.
ecn.jpg
Overall, I would count this experiment a success.
 

Nehalem501

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It's a bit late but might be useful for some people here, you have also a place in Poland where you can buy CD-3.
(They ship everything to me to France without problems)
http://keten.com.pl/contact-us-3/
They sell also among others CD-4, CD-1, hydroquinone, metol, ...
 

ndrs

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Which page are CD-3 and CD-4 on? I only found CD-1.

It's worth asking them. They even mention on their site that 'only the tip of the iceberg' is listed on the website.

Łukasz from Keten is very helpful. I've met him when picking up my chemicals in Wroclaw.
 

Nehalem501

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Which page are CD-3 and CD-4 on? I only found CD-1.

This is why I put the link to the contact page as there isn't much of what they sell on their website. Simply send them a message with what you need and they'll tell you if they have it.
I'm sure they have the few products I wrote here because when I ordered CD3 they asked me if I needed any of those.


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