...Any plumbing gurus?

[Jamie A Cowan]

Calling any plumbing expert.
…or anyone who has strong opinions on the right and wrong way to plumb a darkroom.
· I am in the UK (London).
· I have no idea regarding plumbing codes or standards in the UK, but id like to do it correctly.
· I have no idea what work I can or cannot do myself and or if I need this inspected or signed off after the work is done. Advice welcome.
· Although quite tight on space I plan on printing 20x24
· I wish to make the pluming look neat and tidy?
Aesthetics is important, the execution of the plumbing and the fittings used needs to look good, as well as functional.
· I think I want to use PEX and crimp fittings but could be persuaded otherwise.
· Attached is my water quality report. I have Hard water at 257ppm, I read that a darkroom needs 40-150ppm for acceptable results?


What I think I will need/want/install
A Manifold?
Q. Make or buy, if buy which manufacturer? (How many Hot and Cold lines on the manifold to ensure future proofing).
Hass K250 – I guess this does not need debating?
Hot water filter 5 microns - 10inch size version pleated
Cold water filter 10 microns – 10inch size version pleated
Aquabion - Hard water calcium remover. https://www.aquabion-uk.com/why-aquabion/
Leak detection and remote shutoff valve


Water out:
1. Main Tap/faucet
Hass Regulated & Filtered
Foot switch for tap (Chicago faucets link)
https://www.chicagofaucetshoppe.com/Chicago-Faucets-625-ABRCF-p/625-abrcf.htm

2. Print washer line (Hass regulated) 20x24
3. Film tank hose (Hass regulated)
4. Future Jobo purchase (Future proofing)

Unregulated & un-filtered
5. General mixer faucet/tap
6. Pull extendable spray nozzle – cleaning hose.

What have I not thought about?
For Example: Floor drain? – I thought it may be quite useful to have a drain in the floor, so when handling large unwieldy 20x24 trays, if there is any spillage I can spry down and clean easily? Thoughts

Drainage.
2 sink drains
Floor drain
Print washer drain line

Q. I have looked at the historic threads regarding plumbing but is there any you would recommend I read, either here or on any other forums. (non-photography darkroom related).I read I should research ‘home brewing’ sites do anyone have any recommendations?

Q. Is there plumbing planning tools or drawing CAD programs that could be used?

Q. Does anyone have a plumbing diagram of a darkroom, preferably a decent, professional, lab?

Q. What manufacture of plumbing fittings would people recommend. As this will be on display externally and I will be stood in front of the sink looking at the plumbing, I would like to use decent quality and aesthetically pleasing fittings. Do anyone know of any manufactures that I should research. *(I’m thinking German precession engineering fittings)?

SAFTY: What safety features should I consider?
Remote leak monitoring and shutoff device https://www.amazon.com/Moen-900-002-4-Inch-Smart-Shutoff/dp/B07W9LV16S
Electrical considerations: power for Hass, ect. RCB’s
Earth bond metal taps/faucets
Threaded Union’s for Cleaning and servicing all the individual components.


Things I have read in books and picked up in forums to consider when planning my plumbing.
Water flow meter
Pressure gauge on both sides of the water filters
Backflow valves
Isolation valves – what type is best? Butterfly or ball ¼ turn, ½ turn?
Check valves
Unions (threaded)
Purge vales
Water hammer arrestor
Pressure release valve
Recirculation pump.
Vacuum Breaker
RCD Breaker
Pipe to wall fixing attachments – not sure what their name is.

Copper vs CPVC, 15mm vs 22mm pipes (sorry for the metric my US friends).

Darkroom



Existing preinstalled plumbing in the room next door (shed side of the outdoor studio).




-General space




Were the plumbing comes though the wall



Layout of the darkroom



Small space for the sink




-Wall mounted plumbing panel



Polypropylene sheet for external plumbing water panel, fixed to the walls (drywall/plasterboard) via the studs. Using stand-off brackets.


Max size of the panels
LHS 117x 100 cm
Front 130x 85cm


What do you wish your plumbing could do that is does not?

 

[AgX]

What do you mean by "leak detection and valve shut off"? Mayby I am lightyears beyond current practice, as I am still from times of brazing copper tubings. The only such commercial system that comes to my mind is the watersupply tube for washing machines etc. And I know of commercial detectos placed on the ground that alert when there forms a puddle on the floor.
But at systems with tubings on top of walls and visible and the room frequented, I, even with experience of countless tubes leaking due to copper corrosion (nearly all in plaster), would have not even considered such system. Maybe though I should. I once flooded at a repair lunch break my first floor undetected for few minutes full line strenght...

 

[Jamie A Cowan]

@AgX this may answer

 

[Fraunhofer]

My question would be: do you enjoy DIY projects and plumbing in particular? If so, go ahead, otherwise I'd consider a much simpler setup (which for B&W printing will do fine) or to get a professional.

 

[awty]

Why not contact a local plumber and get them to come over and advise you. Here in Australia you need a licence to do any plumbing and there is hefty fines if you get caught doing your own. I believe other countries are more lenient, but being a licence plumber I havent seen any one who wasnt do it correctly and mostly its done so badly I have to completely remove and start again if they need to make it legal.
Couldnt advise without knowing the code in the UK and actually seeing the job.
You will also need to look into ventilation and perhaps heating.

 

[awty]

What do you mean by "leak detection and valve shut off"? Mayby I am lightyears beyond current practice, as I am still from times of brazing copper tubings. The only such commercial system that comes to my mind is the watersupply tube for washing machines etc. And I know of commercial detectos placed on the ground that alert when there forms a puddle on the floor.
But at systems with tubings on top of walls and visible and the room frequented, I, even with experience of countless tubes leaking due to copper corrosion (nearly all in plaster), would have not even considered such system. Maybe though I should. I once flooded at a repair lunch break my first floor undetected for few minutes full line strenght...

They just work off a solenoid valve, when the detector detects a leak it shuts off a valve. Usually there just used on hot water heaters, some just have an audible alarm, not much good if no one is home. Theres dozens of different brands of PEX pipe, with different systems to put together, some crimp and some push fit. Most who use copper use crimp fitting as well, lot faster than brazing. I still carry brazing gear, but mostly use PEX with a crimping tool. All pipe work in concrete here must be run in a sleeve, so if the pipe gets a leak it can be pulled out and replaced without cutting the concrete. Use to wrap copper pipe in grease cloth if it were plastered into the wall.

 

[Jamie A Cowan]

My question would be: do you enjoy DIY projects and plumbing in particular? If so, go ahead, otherwise I'd consider a much simpler setup (which for B&W printing will do fine) or to get a professional.

Yes very much want to undertake the process myself, happy to learn and get my hands dirty.
Will get a professional to come in and sign-off after completion.
From the research I have done it does not look too onerous.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Why not contact a local plumber and get them to come over and advise you. Here in Australia you need a licence to do any plumbing and there is hefty fines if you get caught doing your own. I believe other countries are more lenient, but being a licence plumber I havent seen any one who wasnt do it correctly and mostly its done so badly I have to completely remove and start again if they need to make it legal.
Couldnt advise without knowing the code in the UK and actually seeing the job.
You will also need to look into ventilation and perhaps heating.

I believe you went a bit off tracks with some of your statements, some are indeed of superior skill to so-called licensed plumbers. Shame in AU you can go to "jail" for trying on your own.

 

[gordrob]

In Canada there is a new system called Waterprotec that when a sensor detects a leak it automatically sends a signal to an automated valve to shut off the water coming into the house. Not cheap thought. It is close to $1000 with five sensors.It has a Wifi connection that sends a message to your phone about the shutoff. You can also get simple leak detectors that when the senor detects moisture it will send a text to your phone.

 

[MattKing]

Do you have a plumber's training facility near you? They might be willing to provide advice and assistance about things like planning, techniques and satisfaction of regulatory requirements.
Around here you would need both an initial permit and an inspection. And if you don't have that, it would most likely invalidate any insurance you might have that protects you from damages arising from leaks.
Check with your property insurer anyways - your policy may require such work be performed under the supervision of a trade certified plumber.

 

[awty]

I believe you went a bit off tracks with some of your statements, some are indeed of superior skill to so-called licensed plumbers. Shame in AU you can go to "jail" for trying on your own.

Its not a criminal offence unless what you do causes injury, same goes for electrical work. I am liable for all work I perform and must either get a local council inspector to certify or I can self certify certain things. I to can get demerit points and fines for doing the wrong thing. It is what it is, blame the nanny state government.
I could not give good advise to the OP without knowing the local regulations and existing plumbing lay out. If he were local I could. If you want a professional job, its best to get a professional to do it, can save a lot of hassle in the end.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Its not a criminal offence unless what you do causes injury, same goes for electrical work. I am liable for all work I perform and must either get a local council inspector to certify or I can self certify certain things. I to can get demerit points and fines for doing the wrong thing. It is what it is, blame the nanny state government.
I could not give good advise to the OP without knowing the local regulations and existing plumbing lay out. If he were local I could. If you want a professional job, its best to get a professional to do it, can save a lot of hassle in the end.

I'm all with you just that one part of quality of work some people do themselves. License is no guarantee of quality work, not that all licensed are bad, just it has no universal meaning of actual quality. I don't think it's any different down under.

 

[awty]

I'm all with you just that one part of quality of work some people do themselves. License is no guarantee of quality work, not that all licensed are bad, just it has no universal meaning of actual quality. I don't think it's any different down under.

Never seen anyone who wasnt a licensed plumber ever even marginally get it correct, mostly its a dogs breakfast of incorrect bits and pieces that are often more expensive than the correct ones, joined wrongly with now concept of physics. The plumbing code is long and laborious, even seen plenty of licence plumbers make mistakes, but they are usually just on technicalities. If people want to dispute the rules I just tell them to talk to the authorities and walk away.
Anyway its Sunday and I dont work weekends unless you want to pay for it.

 

[mgb74]

Is there access from below for adding drains (floor or otherwise)? Or are you pumping your drains? Personally, I think most DIY plumbing jobs are screwed up on the drainage side as opposed to the supply side.

I think remote leak detection and shutoff is overkill. It's easy to add 2 master shutoffs (hot and cold) that you can turn on and off when using the darkroom.

Copper vs CPVC? I like using copper; but I know how to sweat copper fittings. PEX would be next. I personally would not use cpvc; I've heard of too many failures.

IMO, you come out of the wall with hot and cold, with a ball valve for each. After that, all your supply plumbing is exposed to give future flexibility. One reason I like copper is that it looks neater. I do use stainless steel braided flexible lines for connections on my water panel (for example, mixing valve to filter). My entire water supply is conditioned to reduce hardness, and filtered, so nothing special for the darkroom in that respect. I filter after the mixing valve again. I have a backflow preventer after the filter.

Foot switch for water valve? Why?
Water flow meter? Why?
Pressure gauge on both sides of the water filters? Why?
Backflow valves? Not sure what you mean. If you mean something to stop liquid from flowing back into water supply (backflow preventer or vacuum breaker), yes. Same as check valve I believe.
Unions (threaded). If you're using flexible lines, probably don't need.
Purge vales? Why?
Water hammer arrestor? Why? Usually only necessary with appliances that go from full flow to closed immediately.
Pressure release valve? Why?
Recirculation pump? Useful if your darkroom is distant from the hot water heater. I just let my hot water flow a minute to stabilize.
German precession engineering fittings? Is this going in the shed (as in your photo) or in the space station?

And I would definitely do something about those glass doors.

 

[M Carter]

I live in a 85 year old house and have eventually replaced all the galvanized steel supply pipes, used some copper but mostly PEX. PEX had some big issues in its youth with fittings that failed, and I've never installed a fitting that wasn't accessible (mainly the crawl space and water heater closets). It's easy to work with, you need to buy or rent the proper crimping tools for the copper rings. The tools come with a testing gauge that tells you if the crimps were done correctly or not.

My darkroom is a former kitchen (we live in a duplex but use the whole building) and the supply plumbing had failed. I have PEX visible, mounted to the walls/ceiling, and a board with valves over the sink. The fittings are all placed so failures would drain into the water heater emergency drain or into the sink. It's worked very well for me and was very affordable. I'm enlarging the darkroom soon, going into an unused closet space, and it will be very easy to re-design the supply lines. It's very cool stuff for remodeling when you don't want to tear out walls.

 

[maxwellmakoski]

Hey Jamie, I believe we have actually met about a year ago when I used to work at Classic Camera. I am also based in London and am happy to provide any assistance. The plumbing for both of my darkrooms was designed by me and installed by a good friend of mine who has been "my plumber" since I moved to the UK. On a general note I think its really awesome that your building a darkroom, its always good to have another one. I also applaud your desire to create a real work of art and have everything in its place. I must say when I built my first darkroom I had no clue what I was doing. After building that first one and practically living in it I learned a lot. My second darkroom is much better however even after this one I can think of many improvements that I failed to see before. I have sent you a message on ig however feel free to dm me here as well. Hopefully some of the insights I have gained over the years designing and building darkrooms can be of use to you.

 

[VinceInMT]

Here in Australia you need a licence to do any plumbing and there is hefty fines if you get caught doing your own.

Does that mean that one must produce a license to buy a plumbing part at a hardware store?

 

[awty]

Does that mean that one must produce a license to buy a plumbing part at a hardware store?

No, you buy what you like, just cant legally use.
Plumbing and electrical is legislated under Australian standards, all fixtures and fittings must have an Australian compliance certificate and fitted by a licensed plumber who issues a compliance certificate or has a plumbing inspector issue one.
If you do your own plumbing you will have no insurance or warranty and if it is found out by the local body who polices it you will be forced to rectify.
If you do paid plumbing work without a licence, fines are in the 10's of thousands.
If what you do causes injury fines are in the 100,s of thousands and possible jail time.
We take public health and safety extremely seriously here.
People still do there own plumbing, 30% of my work is fixing up bad plumbing. People can't even change a tapwasher without mucking it up.

 

[VinceInMT]

awty, thanks for the info. Here in the states I assume that faulty work incurs liability should damage or injury occur but simply doing it yourself isn’t a big deal. Some jurisdictions have different rules as to how much one can do without a license.

BTW, I’ll be in Sydney for the Biennale this May and am really looking forward to it.

 

[awty]

BTW, I’ll be in Sydney for the Biennale this May and am really looking forward to it.

Enjoy. If you have the time make sure you get out west to see the country.