all the pieces and prices

Hi

In my recend thoughts about how to enter MF format, It also hit me that I could try 4x5 instead.

Now I've been looking at prices of LF gear, and I must say that the prices of cameras themselfs are not that bad, in fact some manufacturers like Toyo make "bodies" even cheaper than MF bodies.

Now, I'd like to ask you people, what are the minimum components that I'd need for a working 4x5 system?
Now I assume I need a film holder, a lens board, the camera itself, a focusing screen and a lens. What else?

Also, I don't enlarge to such sizes that would show full LF potential. The reason I'd consider LF is just to move away from that darn 35mm,
SO, all I would need from a 4x5 system is MF level quality, that's all.
Now with these cheapest components, can I expect quality that would at least equal good 6x7 MF?
The reason I'm asking is because something tells me those cheapest LF lenses might degrade the whole 4x5 image bellow level of good MF in terms of resolving power and sharpness, but I hope I'm wrong in this prejudice


So what would you recommend to a guy who only wants to enlarge to MF sizes, but still benefit the lack of grain in LF?

Can a new LF system be constructed for less than say $1200?

Do what cheapos like us do: use a 4x5" camera and use 6x7, 6x9 or 6x12 roll film backs. MF film is also cheaper and easier to get processed if you don't have a dark room. But you'd have the movement of a LF camera. If you buy cheap LF lenses (like tessars and tessar-types or other old brassies) you only use the better part of the lens when shooting wide open. When stopped down to f16 or so, there will be only a dozen or so people in this world who can easily distinguish between your lens and a new & expensive one, is my moderate guess.

A lot depends on what you want to shoot. If you shoot portraits, it might even be nice to use older lenses if you like the 'modelling effect' - of the lens, not the model.

We shoot architecture a lot and need movements, which can be a problem as cheap older lenses tend to be cheap because they have a limited image circle and allow little room for shift etc. If that is a problem, there are always the occasional $30 Angulon 90/6.8 or Beryl 90/6.8 to be had with a little patience, or a post-war 5" Ross wide angle or a cheap G-Claron from an abandoned reprocamera, which only needs to be mounted in a shutter.

With older lenses, it's wise to invest in a good compendium or a shade, to minimize flare and improve contrast in the shadow parts.

So yes, there are a lot of options.

Ah, and don't save on the roll film holders: film flatness is very important for sharpness! We use Horseman/Wista/Toyo type holders with satisfying results.

Good Evening, Ed,

Everything Norm says above is accurate. There are lots of very good reasons to go with LF; I use LF and would not want to give it up. At modest print sizes, however, MF can be very, very close to LF quality. Your choice of format might better be based on your working style, likely subject matter, etc. Oh--Yes, a decent, basic LF system can easily be put together for less than $1200, assuming you buy used equipment; with luck, you might even be able to include a good, used 4 x 5 enlarger within that budget.

Konical

Ed_Davor said:

Can a new LF system be constructed for less than say $1200?

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New? I doubt it. Used but in really good shape? Sure. I got started in LF in 2002 by picking up a used Tachihara 4x5, Caltar-II 150, Fujinon 210, 5 film holders, a dark cloth and a Domke pack off eBay for about that. There's a 4x5 Korona with 16h to go for $250 on eBay right now.

I'd say the things missing from your list are: a dark cloth, a cable release for the shutter, a tripod and head, a changing back for loading holders (or an all-the-way-dark room) and a hand held meter (or 35mm camera).

Badger Graphics puts together a nice 'Kit" for under $1300 for either the Shen Hao or Tachihara: 4X5 Introduction Kit includes camera, Nikon "W" 150mm/5.6 mounted on a lens board, Lens wrap, Dark cloth, 4 ea. Fidelity film holders, Loupe, Cable release.

http://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=2

Ed_Davor said:

Hi
Now, I'd like to ask you people, what are the minimum components that I'd need for a working 4x5 system?
Now I assume I need a film holder, a lens board, the camera itself, a focusing screen and a lens. What else?

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A sturdy tripod and head.

You might want to consider a 5x7 instead of a 4x5. They are not much bulkier to carry and 5x7 makes a nice contact print so you wouldn't need an enlarger to start off. You could also get a 4x5 back and have the best of both worlds.

Joe

smieglitz said:

You might want to consider a 5x7 instead of a 4x5. They are not much bulkier to carry and 5x7 makes a nice contact print so you wouldn't need an enlarger to start off. You could also get a 4x5 back and have the best of both worlds.

Joe

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what joe said

-john

Hell, for 1200 dollars you can have a hell of a lot of stuff off the used market including a nice tripod. If you want new then the pickings get real slim indeed. I am proof positive that a poor man can get into LF and have more cameras than I need for less than 1200 dollars.

The others have completed you list for you but I would say a dark cloth is not necessary to begin. A terry towel, or thick sweatshirt will do nicely. I know this because I constantly forget my dark cloth at home.

Holders(at least 3)
Dark cloth
Tripod with head
Loupe
Shuttered lens
Light meter
Filters w/ filter holder if your lens won't accept screw ons.
lens cleaning kit
something to carry it all in.
If 4x5, then a 4x5 enlarger, like an Omega D2, Bessler 45 etc... with lens, trays, easel, focusing device, graduate, swizzle stick & timer.

thats about it. Go with a 5x7 or 8x10 and you can do without the enlarger, but you'll still need the trays, graduate, swizzle stick, contact frame or a sheet of glass & timer for souping film and contact printing.

...and a cable release!

medform-norm said:

Do what cheapos like us do: use a 4x5" camera and use 6x7, 6x9 or 6x12 roll film backs. MF film is also cheaper and easier to get processed if you don't have a dark room. But you'd have the movement of a LF camera. If you buy cheap LF lenses (like tessars and tessar-types or other old brassies) you only use the better part of the lens when shooting wide open. When stopped down to f16 or so, there will be only a dozen or so people in this world who can easily distinguish between your lens and a new & expensive one, is my moderate guess.

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wow, that sounds interesting, tell me more about that option (MF backs with view cameras)

Are there special 6x7 backs for LF cameras or are you using regular 6x7 backs (ment for MF cameras)?

A question to all the others:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...176&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation


What is missing from this kit? (I mean only the necessary things to start actually making pictures)

Ed, you can use Graphic style backs (e. g. from Mamiya RB67) if you use some special adapters from your view camera (such as TOYO Quick Roll Slider - a tool that I bought recently very very cheap, and I can't imagine shooting rollfilm on 4x5 without it since this purchase). There also are available special 4x5 backs - for example, Linhof Super Rollex backs, fitting in place of ground glass on your 4x5, or the backs that are inserted between GG and camera just like a regular holder (don't like them, they're too heavy and thick, and that can damage springs in camera's back, and such holder can inadvertenly "pull the mouth open" by its weight, causing misfocus and light leaks). My choice is a Toyo sliding adapter - it has its own ground glass of right size, integral automatic darkslide, accepts standart Graphic backs, and it's lighting fast - you compose your picture, press a button, slide your film holder on place of GG, shoot, slide back, wind the film, ready for another picture. But I would also keep my Linhof 6*7 I'm trying to repair now - for travels etc. where I don't want to carry a slider.

Ed_Davor said:

wow, that sounds interesting, tell me more about that option (MF backs with view cameras)

Are there special 6x7 backs for LF cameras or are you using regular 6x7 backs (ment for MF cameras)?

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Ed, that's a fine kit - on my personal opinion, Toyo makes the best cameras for the money they ask, sturdy and good in use. The lens is OK, a modern triplet - although it's quite good for all work, I can say it for sure. My friend shoots with Geronar and he's happy with it. You would need a good tripod (I use Manfrotto #475), a good ballhead, and a cable release. I used a regular cable release all my life, but recently I came across a pneumatic release (the one with a rubber bulb on one side, piece of tubing, and a rather bulky piston with standart screw on the end). Looks like I'm in eternal love with it - no other release works so soft and gently, and I like the feeling of the bulb in my hand, instead of pesky button It's also cheap, so I can warmly recommend it to you. You would also need a special (or not so special) loupe, about 4X - to make sure that your focus is spot on. Don't save on a heavy-duty case for your camera, too - it would preserve it nicely and make things easy.

With that kit you should be able to start shooting immediately - one more thing, if you use a 4*5 film, you would need a light-tight and dust-free place to load the holders.

Cheers, and good luck - I came to LF not too long ago by myself, and I can tell you that it's a real pleasure.

Regards from Moscow - Zhenya

Ed_Davor said:

A question to all the others:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...176&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation


What is missing from this kit? (I mean only the necessary things to start actually making pictures)

Click to expand...

If you shoot portraits, it might even be nice to use older lenses if you like the 'modelling effect' - of the lens, not the model.

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What do you mean by "modeling effect of the lens"?

I would suggest you either rent a LF camera and borrow one from a friend - it is a completely different ball game than 35mm and even MF. You might like it or you might hate it. Few folks use LF handheld - I always use a tripod (I do landscape) and it takes a long time (compared to 35mm or MF) to take the picture. If all you want is MF quality as you stated then LF is an overkill in my opinion. Buying a 4x5 to use exclusively with a rollfim back sounds silly to me - get a Mamiya 645 or similar and you just might be happier with it. Just my 2 cents.

sattler123 said:

Buying a 4x5 to use exclusively with a rollfim back sounds silly to me - get a Mamiya 645 or similar and you just might be happier with it. Just my 2 cents.

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Maybe to you - but you didn't take into account that with 4x5" view cameras:
1. you have more movements than with most MF ones (excluding 2x3 baby view cams), and in medium format, shift/tilt lenses over way too expensive and too limited really
2. you get to use cheap interesting lenses you can't use on most MF gear
3. you get to use roll film backs up to 6x12, something impossible on MF gear
4. it is very hard to find a good MF set that does 6x9 with movements,
(Compared to 6x12 or 6x9, the 6x4,5 format is too tiny and too close to 35mm making it worth the switch.)
5. if you like the view camera movements and you want to go bigger than roll film, you can upgrade/switch to 4x5 sheet film in say a Fuji Quickload or similar for ease of use, in some case you can even upscale the camera to 5x7"

etc. etc.

So, no, I don't think it is silly to use a LF camera with roll film backs.

Regardings Ed's questions:

in the olden days, some lens manufacturers advertised their portrait lenses as having a modelling effect. Without saying I hold the thruth here, I've always taken that to mean that with such a lens, you could shoot wide open, get shallow dof, maybe even brilliant bokeh and end up with a sort of 3D-ish effect on the photo. You probably know it already, since it was something used a lot in movie shots. In short hand: actors in focus, background blurry.

With regards to MF backs on LF cameras. If you haven't found out yet what is meant, try googling something like "horseman roll film holder" + 4x5" and you'll see for yourself.

I think there are several people here on this forum who shoot this way - or with some kind of Graflex camera (like Speed or Crown Graphic).

Renting a LF camera is a very good tip that can save you lots of learning time. I suspect that, if I could start all over in the LF field, I would start with that and save myself some terrible mistakes and mis-purchases. OTOH, this could all have been part of the learning curve.

Ed_Davor said:

A question to all the others:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...176&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation


What is missing from this kit? (I mean only the necessary things to start actually making pictures)

Click to expand...

Ed, if I'm not mistaken, that's a rail camera, not a folding field camera. Just something to keep in mind, if you mostly photograph outdoors.

I'll second what some others have said about considering a used 5x7. It's not much larger than 4x5, many 4x5 lenses will also cover 5x7, the image shape can be more pleasing to people who are used to the 2:3 ratio of 35mm, and you can make very nice contact prints (no need to buy a 4x5 enlarger).

Oh, looks like I forgot some area of rollfilm backs usage on LF camera. I am ordered sometimes to shoot some still-lives for catalogues (dishes, tableware etc.), and it should be done on 6x7cm slide. I find my setup to be very, very convenient for it(Toyo-Omegaview 45D + Fujinon 150/6.3 + Toyo Quick Roll Slider + Toyo Rollfilm 6x7 holder). It's faster in use, even compared to Mamiya RB67. In other words, if you need to shoot macro or closeups, with rollfilm on LF you would get more DOF for the price of format size (the final magnification is lower, and so is the bellows extension), plus all movements and immense ease of composing/focussing.

If you're interested in getting started in LF, take a look at the main page of lfphoto.info and read through the articles. I also recommend Steve Simmons' book _Using the View Camera_, which is a great introduction.

You can easily get started with everything you need for under $1200.

I agree that even if you want to shoot primarily rollfilm, you are better off with a 4x5" camera and rollfilm backs in general, than with a dedicated 6x9 view camera. There are many more options if you start with a 4x5" camera, and most 4x5" cameras make better MF view cameras than most dedicated MF view cameras in terms of movements available, ability to use wide lenses, accessibility and convenience of controls, etc., and of course a 4x5" camera gives you the option of shooting 4x5".

hi ed

i have a toyo 45cx. it is a good basic camera with all he movements that a monorail camera has. this means you will be able to adjust the film and focus planes if you tilt the camera up/down &C to correct for distortion and if you want to make adjustments to put everything imaginable in or out of focus. the toyo cameras are known for being modular - this means the accesssories for a "high end" model most likely will work with the cameras a little farther down in their line up. the 45cx takes a 110mm square lens board - the same ones that their folding field cameras take -- it is a small front standard, not a big one like some of the other view cameras. the bellows on this is the standard bellows too short for a really long lens like a 370 and you won't be able to use a really wide angle lens (65mm for example) without the bag bellows - the regular bellows will constrict too much, but it will work fine with a 210, 150, or a 90mm lens. it has a graflock (international) back, so it will allow you to use a old (or newer) roll film back. there are 22 (6x6square) 23 (6x9) or a plethora of other roll backs ... if you get an older one, watch out because sometimes the winder doesn't wind the film completely, and you might get some overlapping ... in order to rotate the back, you have to remove it and turn it, and attach it again, it isn't a rotating back by any means ( there is one, but you have to buy it separately ). i used a graphic view II for about 12 years before getting the toyo. in a lot of ways, i wish i still had it. it was sturdy, and worked very well. the reason why i sold it wasn't cause i didn't like it or it was old, but because i sometimes need to use a wide angle lens wider than 90mm, and the bellows of the gvII were fixed. i am sure some folks have used a very wide lens on the gvII, but i didn't want to deal with not being able to do the camera movements, it was hard enough with a 90mm lens to do what i needed to do ...

all that said, if you are looking to do portraits, or photography that might not need a lot of movements (like a 35mm or medium format camera) you might think about getting a folding press camera like a speed (has a focal plane shutter so youcan use barrel lenses ) or a crown graphic. i had both a speed and a crown and found the speed to be more useful ... press cameras (like the speed graphics) are nice if you don't need movements (but a little rise) ... i use mine for site photography (habs/haer) as well as location portrait stuff ... and just having fun ...

if you don't need more than 18" of bellows (that is like a 450mm lens) you might also want to check out a folding 5x7 view camera like this one on ebay right now. it has a 5x7 and 4x5 back but it doesn't have a graflock back, so roll back is out of the equation ... the seller i have heard of, and seems to have a good reputation (leica dealer) .. and right now you might not even need to know a song or a dance to pick it up.

while is it ez to use a roll film back on a 4x5 cameas, it is kind of a pain in the neck without some sort of ground glass &C (i guess that is what the toyo adapter is ..) i have 2 backs but they are never in use ( still have film in them!) because it is a drag to remove the ground glass and put on the roll back all the time. i agree with a 4x5 (or bigger) you get all the controls and different lens options, but there is a trade off (convenience of just a normal mf camera). i recently bought a mf-rf because of the inconvenience of using a roll back with a lf camera. portraits, and all around photography are a lot easier with a small camera with roll film compared to the difficulties of not being able to just pick-up, and go (instead it would be pick up, don't forget maybe you need a tri(or mono)pod, a darkcloth, someplace to put the groundglass after you remove the back, make sure you don't move, cause the image will be outta focus .... &C &C &C ) in a studio setting it is ez, but when you go somewhere it is a pain.

-john

There are also cheap Nikon lenses for LF, would they work with Toyo-View cameras?
And are they better than those that usually come with Toyo (forgot the name)?

I'm unaware of cheap Nikon LF lenses - what ones do you have in mind? Most of the LF-dedicated contemporary lenses would work with Toyo, the main question is a choice of lensboards. The shutter sizes are well standartized, so if you have two flat lensboards with holes for Copal 0 and Copal 1 size (that's the sizes of Copal shutter, de facto standart), and a recessed lensboard with Copal 0 hole (for your wide-angle lenses), it would be pretty enough to fit almost every lens you need. Some lenses come in biiiig Copal 3 shutter, but that's not an often case in 4x5 - unless I'm mistaken.

Nikon lenses should be better than Geronar - they possibly use an another optical deisgn, allowing for more sharpness, coverage (an important thing with view camera), and contrast.

Ed_Davor said:

There are also cheap Nikon lenses for LF, would they work with Toyo-View cameras?
And are they better than those that usually come with Toyo (forgot the name)?

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A few random thoughts. LF lends it self very well to buying used. The camera itself avoids most of the things that breaker on smaller formats. No shutter and no film advance. I'll bet most of us have at least one camera that is older then we are. Odds are it's in better shape then we are to -)

It's been along time since anybody made "kit" LF lenses. Even the cheapest LF lens is going to be aimed at a certain market level. It might not be the fastest. It might not have the biggest image circle. But on pure image quality it'll often come down to what you like.

Even with older lenses this is true. Some people like the look of older lenses. These lenses may not be state of the modern lens making art but you'll find them to be pretty expensive because they are sought after for the look. Even the less sought after can make good photos.

About the rollfilm issue. You'll need shorter lenses. If you're a very wide angle person that will mean finding a camera that can handle very wide angle lenses. Plus those lenses can be expensive. If OTOH you shoot mostly portraits with long lenses then the roll film back gains here. OTOH I'd still rather use a MF camera for portraits over a LF and a rollfilm. I don't think anybody has mentioned bellows length and how that relates to lens choices. Both on the long and short end.


Remember if you're shooting 4x5 or bigger you'll be using less enlargement. A 6x7 going up to 8x10 is what 4x? Versus 2x for 4x5. Your 6x7 lens will have to be provide twice the resolution on the film to match.