AAAHHHH! so the mystique begins to lift...except for rear movements

[Mark Pope]

My brand-new Shen-Hao 4x5, 150mm APO sironar S f5.6 (for the same price as a Sironar-N) and used 75mm Rodenstock-Caltar f4.5 arrived on Wednesday.

I had a very pleasant evening working out how to fold and unfold the blasted thing and playing around with some of the movements. I managed to get the hand (I THINK) of front standard movements pretty quickly, but as yet I still have to get my head around movements on the rear standard and how to apply them.
Yesterday, I loaded my DDSs - this was nowhere near as tricky as I was expecting. The hard part was getting into the box of HP5 plus!
I've now made my first tentative exposures: two in the garden, just mucking about really, and three up at White Horse Hill near Swindon, where I live.

Despite reading the relevant chapter in 'The Camera' I couldn't get rear tilts to work. I was pointing the camera down hill, so applied rear tilt to bring the camera back to vertical. When I focused on the foreground, the everything else was out of focus. Applying tilt to correct the focus to the horizon worked, but there was no way I could then correct focus for the foreground!

I think next time I'll try setting the camera to infinity (or the furthest point) then applying the tilt to see what happens. So I resorted to 'just' using front tilt and hopefully, I'll have three good negs to play with.

I took a good half-hour setting up the shot, just working at a gentle potter. It was so relaxing, even with the focusing cloth being blown this way and that by the wind. Funny how it didn't start to blow until I started setting the camera up...

On my way home, I popped into a local stationery suppliers and got a couple of large bulldog clips. These should help with holding the focusing cloth in place.

So, it's off into the darkroom this afternoon - so wish me luck!

Cheers

 

[philldresser]

LF Workshop

Mark

Good to see you in the LF arena.

How about (there was a url link here which no longer exists) in Tintern (Not far from you) on the 30th June for £95. All you will need to know to get the most of you new toy.

Apols for the shameless plug

Phill

 

[Mark Pope]

Hi Phill,

I had spotted your last post about the workshop. I am interested, but I need to check on whether I can have the day off work.
No need to apologise!

 

[paul owen]

Hi Mark. Welcome to LF! You'll get a few grey hairs before things start to come right!! If you're UK-based check out our new web site www.lf-photo.org.uk. We run workshops all around the UK and get-togethers and the workshops are free - sorry Phil

 

[df cardwell]

It's exactly like learning to play the piano. Read the book, good. Go to a workshop, OK. Spending hours by yourself learning to pick out some tunes, essential.

The hint ? Don't use all the adjustments at once.

 

[Mark Pope]

I see what you mean about the grey hairs! Just finished developing my 1st batch of negatives in a Paterson orbital processor. 3/4 are OK, one (fortunately a blank sheet - don't ask..) has a girt big undeveloped patch on it. The others look OK.
The next problem was drying them. I have a 2nd hand Durst UT100, but the rebates on the sheet film are very thin so there's not much for the film clips to grip. One of my home-made film clips didn't grip what I considered the best neg. Result - gravity took over and it ended up in the bottom of the print dryer. A couple of choice words were uttered I can tell you!

The best news is that I think I've found the best antidote to the World Cup - bliss!

I'll take a peek at lf-photo.org when I have my next tea break.

Cheers

 

[Donald Miller]

Despite reading the relevant chapter in 'The Camera' I couldn't get rear tilts to work. I was pointing the camera down hill, so applied rear tilt to bring the camera back to vertical. When I focused on the foreground, the everything else was out of focus. Applying tilt to correct the focus to the horizon worked, but there was no way I could then correct focus for the foreground!

Cheers

One can use both front and rear tilt together. It is not a case of one or the other. Rear movements are opposite of those in the front.

The other thing to consider in the shot that you describe is the depth of field that may exist between the near foreground and the horizon...this may cause the distance down the hillside to not be susceptible to focus by using tilts and need to be adjusted through aperture.

Good luck and enjoy the journey.

 

[wiseowl]

Hi Mark,

like you I'm a newbie and still struggle with movements, but it's getting there. This is probably an oversimplification, but at present I'm using front movements for dof control and rear for perspective control.
By separating them this way it helps to keep what I'm doing clear in my mind.

Cheers,

Martin

 

[davekarp]

One good way to think about the tilt and swing movements is that the front movements affect the plane of focus, and do not impact perspective. The rear movements do impact perspective.

 

[Mark Pope]

Dear Donald, Martin and Dave,
thanks for your explanations. I think this is going to be a very interesting but ultimately satisfying journey. I reckon it might take me a year to get to a decent level with this kit.

My first shots are a bit disappointing. Content's fine, but they are all marred by underdevelopment - I reckon grade 3.5 - 4 is going to be needed to get a print with a good range of tones. Some also suffer from uneven development, probably as a result of using the Paterson orbital processor.
I think I'll get a proper development tank.
I'm not that bothered though. As you said Donald, it's a journey and I've only just take the first step!

 

[Poco]

Don't worry, with persistence you'll get all the kinks worked out. I have the first sheet of film I ever shot and developed pinned to the wall in my darkroom -- and I mean pinned ...smack dab through its middle. It's the ugliest neg ever produced, but I still have a soft spot for it.

Keep at it!

 

[Mark Pope]

LOL!

 

[HerrBremerhaven]

Downhill shots can be a strange set of adjustments at times. I had a shoot recently that was a downhill, followed by a flat area, and then another uphill going to the horizon. I focused on the far hill, and tried to have the back of the camera parallel to that, and the bottom of the camera (the bed of my field camera) parallel to the first downhill. Then I adjusted the front standard to increase the depth of field. Unfortunately, I had so much movement dialed into the camera standards that I vignetted the top of the image by going out of the image circle of the lens.

On a subsequent try at about the same location, I simply pointed the camera slightly downhill for composition, then focused to bring the farther hill into focus. Then a slight amount of rear axial tilt was applied to make the foreground appear larger. Next a small front base tilt was used to help the foreground focus. Stopping down to f22 finished it, and I did run off a test Polaroid. This set-up was far less extreme movements than the first, yet the images are quite similar (though without vignetting on the second image).

I doubt it will take you a year, though maybe ten sheets of film would be a good run at figuring out the movements. I find that I like using rear axial tilt more than other tilt movements on either standard, since it minimizes the need to refocus. Unless you want to shoot near wide open aperture, I find that you can often be close on improving foreground focus using tilt, and then let your final stopped down (f16 or f22, et al) cover the DoF. Hopefully that made sense the way I typed that; it is often easier to show this than for me to write this down. It can really help to see someone else doing the adjustments, so hopefully you can meet up with someone, or do a workshop.

Glad to see you are enjoying your Shen-Hao. I just got one in January, and I am very impressed with it so far. Certainly there are better cameras, but given enough practice and a creative vision you should be able to make quite nice images with a Shen-Hao. Best of light to you.

Ciao!

Gordon

 

[Rob Skeoch]

What a great way to spend a day. I hope you fall in love with it. I know I did.
-Rob Skeoch
www.bigcameraworkshops.com

 

[leeturner]

Mark, I've also just started on the LF journey and been going through some of the same confusion and frustration. Whilst I can easily see the effects of rise and shift it's been harder to get the hang of tilt and swing. The Simmons book has been a constant companion. The one thing I have found is that very little movement is needed when taking landscape photos, a couple of degrees of tilt coupled with a small aperture is usually all I need.
As for processing, I'm using trays and developing one neg at a time. After hearing all of the horror stories about scratched negs I was pleasantly surprised at the results and the ease of processing, if not the content! Funnily enough I'm looking for a Paterson Orbital so if you decide to get rid of it let me know.
LF is a fascinating way of working for me, and coupled with the fact that I only currently have two film holders really makes me consider a shot. To go out for a couple of hours and come back with four negs instead of 3 rolls of 35mm or 120mm is a radically new way of working.

 

[Mark Pope]

Gordon,

thanks for the explanation. Yes it does make sense.

Rob,

I had a marvellous time. It didn't matter that my negatives were rubbish, as I had set my expectations quite low anyway and I failed to reach them ;-) The location isn't far away and I know the shot I want when the light is right.

Lee,

Thanks to Ansel Adams, words of encouragement / advice from this forum and a couple of sessions just playing with the camera, the penny is beginning to drop.
I'm also lucky enough to have a mate at work who is a LF user, so I can go and pick his brains over a coffee.
Oh, and while the World Cup is on, I'll loads of time to take pictures/get in the darkroom/just play with the camera as I'm not in the least bit interested in it.

Cheers


Mark

 

[leeturner]

Mark, I don't know if you initially went through the same thing as I did (and am still doing). In my mind I'd convinced myself that LF was extremely complicated and technical. The breakthrough came when I started to treat it as a normal camera that has a few extra functions. I've taken lots of photos in the past on cameras that have no movements so my first LF exposures were taken using the same method. I then started using the movements for perspective correction, one of the main reasons for me going into LF. I think one of the nice things with LF is that it's a constant learning curve, yet you can make it as simple to use as any other camera.
Now I've just got to get my composition, exposure and development sorted out

 

[dphphoto]

Sounds like you're off to a good start. LF doesn't come automatically. I've been at it so long that I forget what it took to learn in the first place.
When I started, I thought you needed a monorail that you could twist up like a pretzel. I soon learned that you usually need very little in the way of movements.
When shooting downhill, you might want to level the camera bed and lower the front lens stage. You'll probably only need a little front tilt to bring things into focus.
You might want to try try developing. Start with maybe 4 or 6 sheets. With a proper pre-soak, you really shouldn't have any problems with scratches, etc. But it will take some practice. I've always hated developing tanks, unless its a Jobo (and how many of us have that kind of cash); they're a guaranteed way to get uneven development.
Good luck and keep at it. Dean

 

[Campbell]

Why were you tilting the back with the camera pointing downhill? Was there something vertical on the hill that you wished to appear vertical in the photograph or was there something in the foreground whose shape you wanted to change or would you have run out of image circle if you had used front tilts? If one of those three situations wasn't present then there was no reason to use back tilt (as opposed to front tilt, which may or may not have been useful).

You don't have to use back tilt just because your camera has back tilt. I find front tilt easier to use and it will accomplish the same thing as back tilt except in three situations: (1) if the camera is pointed up, down, or sideways relative to the plane of the subject (e.g. the camera is aimed up at a tall building or tall trees or down at something on the floor) and there's something vertical or horizontal in the photograph that you wish to appear vertical or horizontal in the photograph (e.g. the building, the trees, or whatever is on the floor) then you need to use back tilt to accomplish that result. (2) if there's something in the foreground whose shape you wish to change (e.g. a rock that you want to appear to be larger in the photograph than it really is relative to other objects in the photograph) then you can use back movements to accomplish that result. (3) if your lens doesn't have a big enough image circle or circle of good definition to accomodate front tilt or swing (i.e. if those movements on the front would produce vignetting) then you can use back tilt or swing instead because back tilt and swing don't move the film laterally in relation to the lens axis and so usually won't create vignetting.

It will simplify your LF life considerably, assuming that you're primarily a landscape photographer, if you think of front movements as your standard movements and back movements as something to be used only in special situations (i.e. one of the three situations mentioned above).

 

[colivet]

Regarding movements... It will take some time before they become second nature. The thing with view cameras is that it is a view and adjust process. It is all visual so don't think hard wether you need to tilt down or up or swing or whatever. Get a real light tight darkcloth and get underneath and see what every movement does to the image on the ground glass. There is no secrets, its all visual and practice will tell you what way to go.

On 4x5 cameras you won't see a huge effect of the movements like you see in 8x10 or bigger. With 4x5 you just barely use movements. Most time a slight tilt down and focus readjusting will get you there. If you can't get everything in focus with the movements then focus somewhere in between infinity and the closest thing in the foreground and stop that lens down quite a bit. With a real dark cloth you should be able to see the image coming in to focus.

Another thing in photography is to start the simplest way first. One camera, one lens, one film, 3 trays, water... No need for fancy equipment. It will only get in the way of your photography in the beginning. It can get all too complicated to fast and to easily and it need not be that way.

Have fun!!!!

Christian

 

[Mark Pope]

Lee,

the penny is dropping - it's not as complex as it first seemed and it's great fun learning all about this type of photography. Like you, my number one priority is getting development sorted out.

Dean,

I've got a combiplan on order - this was done before I saw your reply...I had discounted tray development as I was worried about scratching negs. I'll see how I get on with this. Personally, I've never had problems with developing tanks, but then I've only ever processed 35mm or roll film before, so it seems like a natural progression for me. In principle, I can't see why sheet film should be any more prone to uneven development than roll film when it's done in a tank.



Campbell,

I was trying to emphasise something in the foreground. Plus, it was an opportunity to see what each movement would do for me. When I took the shot, which was subsequently cocked up during development), All I used was a smidgen of front tilt. I now understand the notion of using the back movements for perspective control.

Christian,

I've now spent a good few hours since the camera arrived just playing with it and the movements just as you have suggested. There were several 'aha!' moments It is surprising how tiny some of the movements have to be and how counter-intuitive it is some times. I think practice is the key, followed by more practice to 'get' the movements, as well as remembering to keep everything as simple as possible.

Next steps when the combiplan arrives will be to do some tests to establish personal film speeds and development times...

Thanks again to everyone for your advice.

Cheers

 

[Willie Jan]

i bought my shen-hao last year.

I had a laugh about:
-forgot to close the lens before removing the slide in the film holder
-film was positioned in the wrong sleeve, so after removing the slide
and inserting again it popped out into the bellow.
-to low developer in the tank, so 3/4 of the film was developed
-dark image, back of the lens still had the plastic hood on...

I started with the efke/adox 100 film (cheap), developed it in rodinal 1+50 for 12 minutes. If you use rodinal most of the b/w 100 films will be around the 10 minutes development. I use a jobo reel tank and develop it manually. never had any problems. Some time ago i bought a book about all the adjustments to get deeper into it...

have fun, i know i have...

 

[Mark Pope]

Hi Willie,
no doubt I'll make the same mistakes, plus a few different ones! When you think about what could go wrong, I think it's amazing that an image is ever produced.

Cheers

 

[dphphoto]

Dean,

I've got a combiplan on order - this was done before I saw your reply...I had discounted tray development as I was worried about scratching negs. I'll see how I get on with this. Personally, I've never had problems with developing tanks, but then I've only ever processed 35mm or roll film before, so it seems like a natural progression for me. In principle, I can't see why sheet film should be any more prone to uneven development than roll film when it's done in a tank.

Cheers

The biggest problem with 4X5 tanks is the large area of holder, or spacer, or whatever, that holds the film. Developer doesn't flow as evenly around the neg edges because of all the plastic holding the film in place. You tend to get streaking, and underdevepment near the edges.
But, give it a try and see if it works. If it doesn't, give trays another thought. Dean

 

[Mark Pope]

The Combiplan arrived last week. I've now done a personal film speed test and development test plus a couple of 'real' shots. Everything is looking good.
No problems with uneven development and the negs look really nice.

HP5 plus developed in Perceptol 1+2 for 12 minutes at 24 degrees C (as per Barry Thornton's recommendations in 'Elements') gives a personal film speed of 250. The development time was spot on for normal development. I may have a go at printing them tonight. Theoretically, they should print straight onto grade 2 - 2 1/2 without a problem...we'll see...

So if anyone wants to make me an offer for a Paterson Orbital processor, then ping a PM my way.