A few thoughts on the changing market place.

[Ian Grant]

The recent problems with Ilford & Forte are due to a downfall in sales, but is that a actually strictly true.

We are in reality being manipulated by the retailers and wholesalers, as photo-chains expand by acquisition, both in the amateur & professional markets, their level of warehouse stocks constantly decreases and like supermarkets they now order at the last possible moment. With the rapid onslaught of digital imaging many companies panicked thinking they would be left with unsold conventional materials on their shelves

So imagine a chain of photo stores who would have had a rack full of B&W papers 3 or 4 years ago in every store, now if your lucky they have some RC paper in the back room. Now while this is my experience here in the UK I'm sure it's the same in America, Australia, Europe etc, except perhaps the larger stores.

One large chain with many hundreds of stores suddenly reducing stocks has the effect of dramatically reducing factory output, and this is what has hit Ilford & Forte, along with Agfa,

Kodak being cash rich weather the storms but they'd already made the shrewd move by switching production to low salary localities. Fuji look on wisely having made almost perfect forecasts of market trends, talking to a senior UK employee I was told they only slightly under estimated the switch to digital but it worked out in their favour, and as they buy in their B&W materials it's not really a problem.

Meanwhile as die-hard users of B&W materials we now have to find and nurture better suppliers who take our needs and concerns into consideration if they want our business. A few names spring to mind – Fotimpex in Germany, J & C (Fotoimpex US), Silverprint in London and I'm sure there are a great many more elsewhere but some how we need to make sure the manufacturers realise we want to buy their materials on an ongoing basis.

Here in the UK the major amateur chain sells a good variety of products and used to boast they supplied everything, in reality now they sell 120 film, a very limited range of dev, fix etc to process it but no they can't supply 120 neg files as they aren't in the catalogue, and that says it all about their attitude to customers.

We must support suppliers who have our interests at heart, and maybe we should carry larger stocks of film & paper on our own shelves. I placed a very large order in October to do just that although I'm still waiting delivery !!!!

 

[John Bartley]

Excellent post Ian.

I admit to being a bit biased, having run my own (very small) equipment sales and service company (successfully) for a decade before selling it. I firmly believe that if you want your local _________ (fill in the blank : photo / lawnmower / tool) store to be there when you "need it and don't care about the price", then you'd bloody well better shop there when you don't need it even if it costs a bit more.

 

[Paul Howell]

Market forces are very complex, multinational coperations with many different lines of products and services don't want just to make a profit, it's all about growth, market share and stock options. At this point it's to our advantage that Agfa and Illford have defined their core business to include black and white materials. Kodak may stay in the game for historial reasons, but at some point when the black and white products no longer have the growth and return of investments they will bail out as well. The products that survive will survive because of the world wide market that provides a market capable of supporting the product line. The so called thrid world where technology is still limited has a strong demand for both color film and papers as well as black and white.

On the local level you can order on line or buy locally. 5 or 7 years ago in the Phoneix area we had 6 or 7 retail stores. 4 have gone out of business, but 2 of the surviving stores now carrry a larger selection of products because their customer base is now larger. The market will provide as long as there is a demand to justify the investment costs.

 

[mark]

On the local level you can order on line or buy locally. 5 or 7 years ago in the Phoneix area we had 6 or 7 retail stores. 4 have gone out of business, but 2 of the surviving stores now carrry a larger selection of products because their customer base is now larger. The market will provide as long as there is a demand to justify the investment costs.

A year ago this was not the case.

I was in photomark last spring and the selection was terrible for traditional stuff. In fact when i asked the young'un at the counter about a fixer they had he called me a dinosaur and refered me to the older gentleman. Mr. Klukos?(sp) was very helpful and told me that their traditional market was way down and they just did not have a need to carry a wide selection. In fact most of their shelves were empty in this section. I asked about the emptyness and was told they were just not ordering as much anymore because the demand was so low. Depressing as hell. He agreed and told me that other dealers in the valley were having the same problem. Since this was about a year ago maybe things have changed. I hope so.

I tried to buy from my local guy and was depressed to learn that both Kodak and Ilford had pulled the dealer status. They lost their kodak dealer status because they would not buy a huge amount of the plastic disposable cameras. Why should they buy something they are not going to be able to sell? Ilford pulled theirs when they did not make substantial enough orders. They are an art gallery and art supply store who had a small section in the back that used to be chock full of ilford and kodak stuff. Some of it with dust but still good.

The big guys are making it difficult for the small local shops to stay in business because their eyes are bigger than the local little guy can keep up with.

 

[colrehogan]

I buy my 8x10 film via mail order because none of the local photo stores stock it. When I bought my first box of 8x10 Provia in late 2003, I was told this was the last box of 8x10 film in the store. I believe I can still get 4x5 there, but they have to go in the back room to look for it.

 

[roteague]

I think that is true of all film/analog based products. I shoot 99% color (primarily Velvia), but can only buy some 35mm locally (last time I was at the camera store they had 1 roll of Velvia 50 in stock); 4x5 I can't get anywhere here, at any price. I have to order from the mainland.

 

[Steve Roberts]

So imagine a chain of photo stores who would have had a rack full of B&W papers 3 or 4 years ago in every store, now if your lucky they have some RC paper in the back room. !

My local branch of Jessops in Plymouth has for a couple of years maintained one shelf of displayed B/W materials, but a couple of weeks ago even that disappeared. They still keep B/W, but only produce them from the back room on request. I asked for wetting agent yesterday, and after the assistant found someone else who knew what that was, he told me they normally carry "a bottle" in stock but didn't have one!
Steve

 

[Les McLean]

I asked for wetting agent yesterday, and after the assistant found someone else who knew what that was, he told me they normally carry "a bottle" in stock but didn't have one!
Steve[/QUOTE]


This is not a new policy at Jessops. Many years ago, long before digital was with us, I went to both Newcastle and Edinburgh branches to purchase 120 Pan F to be told that they carried a stock of only 2 and were currently out of stock. Jessops are not interested in the photographer, they are only interested in pushing their own brand cheapo crap.

 

[arigram]

Here in Greece it is often pure laziness of the merchants... God I hate them!

 

[David H. Bebbington]

Jessops are not interested in the photographer, they are only interested in pushing their own brand cheapo crap.

Like any modern business, Jessops use sophisticated stock-control methods and axe goods when they fall below certain sales levels. I believe that Jessops got where they are today by being good at what they do - let us not forget that the major photographic retailer chain before Jessops was Dixon's!

Far worse, I find, is the policy pursued by Ilford and others on order sizes (it will be interesting to see if this changes now!), namely a £100 minimum order for any products whatsoever and a £500 minimum order to get maximum discount. This more than anything has led to Ilford products disappearing from small stores in the UK - not only can the small stores themselves not put together orders of this size very quickly, nor can their wholesalers.

Jessops have always managed to get me what I want by mail order (just how much do you expect 20-year-old sales assistants in high-street branches to know about 50+-year-old equipment?) When I last did a huge trade-in of both amateur and pro equipment in order to buy a Mamiya RB67 outfit, Jessops were the only dealer who would handle the deal - so-called pro dealers were refusing to take Mamiya TLRs in great shape in as trades.

In conclusion, I can only agree with others - if you want a certain sales outlet to stay in business, go and spend money there frequently!

 

[127]

Jessops stock control isn't so sophisticated - I ordered four of an item (listed as in stock) from their website a year ago, and was sent the first. About a month later they canceled the order, as the other items were lost in the warehouse!

I've lost count of the times I was in the shop, and asked about a particular item, only to be told they didn't carry it, as they didn't sell many - missing the irony, that they WOULD have sold one to me if they'd had one.

Every visit is an exercise in frustration - don't get me started on the time I tried to by a roll of 127 (Jessops own brand!) to be told there was no such thing.

Yes I do expect someone who works in a (so called) specialist photo shop to know about camera's and photography! When I take my slightly old car to the garage, I expect the mechanic to be able to fix it, even though it's not the current model.

What I don't understand is, once Jessops (and other anti film, photo suppiers) switches over totally to digital, then they're just a computer shop, selling digital cameras, printers computers, and paper. PC World does all those things cheaper, and has a wider range, so why do we need them.

Fortunatly I work next door to an art college, and the corner shop sells 120, 4x5 and paper. It's also only 10 minutes walk to Robert White's.

Ian

 

[David H. Bebbington]

Jessops stock control isn't so sophisticated - I ordered four of an item (listed as in stock) from their website a year ago, and was sent the first. About a month later they canceled the order, as the other items were lost in the warehouse!

I've lost count of the times I was in the shop, and asked about a particular item, only to be told they didn't carry it, as they didn't sell many - missing the irony, that they WOULD have sold one to me if they'd had one.

Every visit is an exercise in frustration - don't get me started on the time I tried to by a roll of 127 (Jessops own brand!) to be told there was no such thing.

Yes I do expect someone who works in a (so called) specialist photo shop to know about camera's and photography!

I don't think you've quite got it! The sophistication is for their benefit (to avoid getting stuck with non-moving stock which goes stale) rather than yours. As regards 127 film, remember no cameras have been made for this film for 45 years or more - try going into an electrical store and talking about tube radios and shellac 78 rpm phonograph records. Your inquiry about 127 was probably the first time the assistant had ever heard of it. Buying photo goods from a high street store is like renting a video from Blockbuster's - you wouldn't expect to discuss the finer points of movie direction with their staff. If I need anything obscure from Jessops, I look it upon the website first and either order from there or note the stock code to quote in a store. Not an ideal situation I admit, but that's modern life for you!

 

[Jim Chinn]

Here in the Omaha area we used to have 2 camera stores that supplied the analog market place. Both were more expensive then ordering the same stuff from B&H, but one of the stores would give volume customers 15% discount which was tolerable in a pinch. Now one store has closed. The owner retired because he could not compete with Best Buy and Circuit City on pricing for digital high end cameras or even point and shoot. Digital became about 80% of his sales. The pros that did purchase there could not make up the lost profit.

Now with only one store, they have only a very limited supply of film and darkroom products and there is no discount. So I will probably never again make a purchase from a brick and mortar store. So there really is no choice but to support mail order suppliers.

 

[Nick Zentena]

The places here have always stocked stuff for the schools. So still plenty of RC paper and lesser amounts of other stuff. The general fall off happened long ago. Long before digital.

 

[bobfowler]

Whenever possible, I try to buy from my local supplier. I want them to be there when I need them, and if this means that I may pay a little more for some items I could get via mail-order, so be it.

On the other side of the coin, a lot of our local photo stores have gone belly up in the past 3 or 4 years. The ones that remain are, unfortunately, smaller Mom & Pop shops that don't carry a lot of the supplies I need on a regular basis. I could live with that IF they would follow through on their promise when they say "I'll get it for you". I've had too many situations where a local store promised to order something and then never does. After weeks of waiting and "it's on the way" lip service, it's time to move on and get it where I can.

Fortunately, there are mail-order suppliers out there (J&C comes to mind) who care about customer service. Even though Overland Park, Kansas is 1208 miles from Middletown, New Jersey, I consider them to be one of my "local" suppliers!

 

[fhovie]

I like to consider the "value" a distributor adds to a product. To like likes of apugers, a local distributor can probably only add the value of -us- not having to wait for a delivery. Past that - we would probably not find a local distributor that knew more about what we are interested in than we do - that would add value to the buying experience so that a higher price is warranted. To a student or a newly interested soon to be photographic artist, a well equipped and well informed store would be worth some extra price to cover the extra expense of having that kind of resources on hand. Even when that kind of place was around, there was a base of soccer moms bringing in 20 rolls of color kiddie pix per week to pay the overhead. We have a pretty good photo store in town. The staff have experience with all formats and darkroom techniques. They stock a lot of MF and 35mm. Their shelves are mostly full of digigismos now and their paper is mostly ink jet now. They still carry enough supplies to keep the local college students in fixer but nothing I would buy. I wish to get my color work done there but there would be no margin at all if it was a job for hire. So it is back to the value add. Since they add very little value to that product, there is no reason not to go mail order. There is nothing in my darkroom, closet or freezer that is photographic that did not come at my door in a box. B&H has the right business model and is on top for a reason. APUG is full of people exchanging ideas and that has replaced the "value add" from the discussions that used to be had at a photo store.

 

[Jim Chinn]

My experience is that the decline in darkroom and film inventory is directly related to digital. Two years ago I could walk into one of the stores in Omaha and have a selection of Forte, Kodak, Ilford and Agfa graded, RC and VC papers in several finishes and sizes up 16x20. They carried all the Kodak and ilford chemistry line as well as several Agfa paper developers and Rodinal.

There was also selections from other companies such a Zonal Pro and Berg. Heck they even carried a pretty good supply of basic raw chemicals.

They had a big selection of darkroom gear from several mfgs.

According to one of the managers the first sign of problems was the quick dropo off in sales of darkroom equipment. No one was replacing anything with new. if anyone was in the market for enlarging lenses, enlargers etc, they were buying them used due to people getting rid of darkrooms in favor of digital. Plus there was a huge glut of equipment that had sat in boxes in basements for years and Ebay suddenly opened up a market to get rid of the stuff.

Next mfgs such as Forte and Agfa began to implement minimum order policies that he could not accept. With fewer people buying high end materials (fiber paper, chemistry) he could not risk tying money up in large stocks of Agfa and Forte paper that he might never be able to sell by the expiration date.

So thus ended those suppliers locally. For awhile he split an order on Rodinal with the other store in town and sold the remaining stock to that store when he closed.

The next thing that went was LF film and limiting the selection on MF films. Most of the pros in town had switched to totally digital process killing that profitable side of his business.

For the last two years he did not order any new darkroom equipment unless it was a special order. Last Christmas he said he had about 1 in 20 customers even ask about film cameras. Most of the shoppers would come in, get expert information on digital cameras and then either buy them from the big box stores or on-line.

He told me that most of the people shopping for medium to beginning high end digital cameras considered them to be more in common with computers then with traditional film cameras. The only bright spot was that when he did sell a film camera it was to younger people.

So yes, digital killed or is slowly killing off independent camera and analog retailers in smaller and medium sized cities. The only ones that can survive are those that can buy and move huge stocks of product. That leaves us with Adorama, B&H, Freestyle etc. in the US and probably a similar situation in Great Britain and Europe.

 

[jcausey]

I've struggled on where to purchase things as I've dove headlong into photography over the past few years.

I purchased my Minolta X-700 and lens used from the local camera store several years ago when I decided to get back into film photography after doing a lot of research online. It started a relationship that I really treasure with this local store. They're very near the campus of a major university with a photography program, so they try to support the program -- although they could do better (they always seem to run out of RC paper when assignments are due).

I always assumed I'd buy really major expensive stuff from the New York stores where it's often much cheaper, and get day-to-day supplies here, but as I've grown accustomed to the presence of this store, the relationship has often been the reverse; I've purchased all my lenses and cameras (including the digital SLR that I barely touch now that I love b&w film so much) at the local store, as well as as much of my chemistry as I can find. However, their film selection and pricing is appalling; they stock TriX at a very reasonable price, since it seems to be the only film that the uni students use, but everything else is hard to find and costs a fortune. And any developer besides ID-11, of course, or any paper besides MGIV, I have to mail order as well.

That's where great stores like Calumet and Freestyle (and, apparently, J&C) come in. I don't feel too badly mail ordering from a store that treats me well and has clearly supported the photographic community for some time.

 

[Max Power]

In Quebec City, there were as late as last year 3 photo shops that I know of which sold chemistry, paper & film and darkroom equipment. Two of them sold off their inventory and thus the 'darkroom' population is left with one place at which to shop. I was speaking with the manager a couple of weeks ago and he noted quite happily that since the other two stores had given up, his client base had expanded dramatically. He even sold two enlargers the month previous and cannot keep film, paper or chemistry on the shelves.
Yes, he is about 10% more expensive than if I order by mail, but to me, the convenience of not having to deal with the post office is worth paying extra.
As such, I'm no marketing genius, but I figure that a rationalisation of the sellers is what is probably best for the marketplace, and as long as the suppliers can keep up, there will be photo shops around for a while yet.

Kent