8mm film loading

[fingel]

This may sound like a stupid question, but here it goes. I just got an old Bolex 8mm movie camera and it looks like I would have to load this in the dark. Am I right or is 8mm film like 120 film where there is a leader that blocks out light so you can load in the light. This isn't the super 8 that comes in the cartridge, but the old regular 8mm.

The camera is the type where you shoot on one half of the 16mm film then flip it over and shoot the other half of the film. After development you slit it to get 2 pieces of 8mm film.

I figured that APUG would be the place to ask since it is analog and film.
Thanks for any help you can give.

 

[removed account4]

hi scott -

you can load your camera in low-light like you would load a regular ( still ) film camera. there isn't a paper backing or anything like that, but there is some film at the very beginning ( and end ) of the spool that is just "leader" and not light sensitive.

btw - which bolex do you have?
i used to shoot a b8, a h8 and a h16 ... and i have a source of film and processing - i'll be happy to post it for you if you need info

 

[fingel]

Thanks for the info. I was thinking I was going to have to bring a dark bag with me everywhere I wanted to shoot.

It is the D8L, I can see myself getting addicted to those little cameras. It reminds me of my Hasselblad but for movies. Nice solid feel.

Thanks I could use some info on film and processing. I know J&C sells the Fomapan movie film, but so far that is the only kind of 8mm film I have seen for sale.

 

[removed account4]

hi scott

i used to get my film from this guy:
http://www.prepfilm.com/
he also does film and processing.

if i remember correctly, all black and white movie film has to be sent to switzerland to be processed, but color film you can even drop off at walmart! and (at least near me it is fuji labs that processes all their stuff ) it costs less than $5 to have it done.

this is THE 8mm site : http://lavender.fortunecity.com/lavender/569/
there is a guy named martin who knows pretty much everything there is to know. he processes film &C too.

good luck!!

john

 

[Helen B]

I'm still using Bolex B8, C8 and H8 cameras as well as various Super 8 cameras - mostly with colour neg film. Ask if you have any questions.

Best,
Helen

 

[fingel]

Thanks Helen.


I uploaded a picture of my new (at least too me) movie camera. I can't wait to get out and use it now.

 

[Helen B]

Beautiful. With the pistol grip removed, it's about the size of your palm. It should run for 30 seconds or so on a full wind. Let me know if you need to know anything - like how the TTL meter works. Which lenses did you get? One looks like the 36 mm Yvar.

You can get colour reversal film. Rather than list all the sites here, I'll just suggest doing a search on 'Cinechrome'. You can also get reperforated 16 mm film.

Best,
Helen

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I experimented with 16mm for a while--a Russian Krasnogorsk 3 with a zoom lens that I bought for cheap in Eastern Europe before they were making their way West in any great quantity. I really liked it, but it was a very expensive medium to work in, so I sold it (for much more than I paid for it, but it was still a great deal for the film student who purchased it) to pay for some lighting gear.

My sister, who is an animator, has a Bolex 16mm camera she doesn't use that often. Maybe she'll lend it to me, now that practically all her work is digital.

 

[mobtown_4x5]

Incredible timing on this thread- I have a friend who has the 8mm bug- I stupidly told him that I could probably figure out a way to process his BW myself...anyone ever taken a crack at it?

 

[Helen B]

'anyone ever taken a crack at it?'

Yes, but not recently. I've still got a couple of Russian spiral tanks and a rewind tank but haven't used them for years.

There's a lot of information on the web. Here's one good site.

Ask away.

Best,
Helen

 

[removed account4]

hi scott

nice camera!

just make sure you don't over wind it, and you will be really psyched

 

[Helen B]

I forgot to link to two very useful Kodak documents that may not be revealed by a simple google:

H-661

and

H-24, Module 15

Best,
Helen

 

[fingel]

Yes, the big one is the 36mm Yvar, the small one is a Som Berthoit 12.5mm Lytar.
Well I figured out how to make the meter needle move, but I'm still not sure what the numbers correspond to on the dial. I'm thinking that the numbers on the ring is the shutter speed because they match the numbers on the speed dial, but the inner ring has got me stumped. The number range is 1..4..7..10..13..16..and a black arrow. Thanks for all of your help.

 

[Helen B]

Scott,

The number is set according to the calculator dial. You set the top slide of the calculator to the speed (ASA/DIN both given). Then you read the appropriate number against the shutter angle symbol (yes it has a variable shutter!). There are two scales: the right-hand one is for the Pan-Cinor 40* only, the left-hand one is for all primes between 5.5 mm and 36 mm. This process was done with a table rather than a calculator on lesser models. Later edit: Looking at the picture, I wonder which model you have: you might have a table under the lens. There were a lot of variations.

Now, on the meter dial, set that index number against the frame rate (not usually called shutter speed**) you are going to use. As you twiddle the index dial, the red needle should move. The inner black arrow should be within the limits of the thick black semi-circle on the outer dial.

When you are ready to take a reading, just press the thing over the meter dial - this swings the meter sensor into position (I guess that you've already found this). Match the needles by adjusting the aperture. The sensor swings out when you press the shutter release. It is a selenium sensor, so doesn't need batteries.

The winding mechanism cannot normally be over-wound: you should notice a definite stop. You can wind in a back-and-forth manner, or all in one direction. As I mentioned, if the camera is in good working order it should run for at least 30 seconds on a full wind at 18 fps (which I forgot to mention last time - it runs for less time at higher speeds).

*The Pan-Cinor 40 is a zoom lens with an integral beamsplitter viewfinder.

** Shutter speeds. At 16 fps the shutter speed is 1/38 sec with the shutter fully open and 1/76 sec with it half-closed. All other speeds are pro-rata. It has a 152° shutter. When set to single frame, the shutter speed is always 1/30 with the shutter open and 1/75 with it half closed - except when the fps dial is set to 12 fps, when it is 1/27 and 1/64 respectively.

Best,
Helen

 

[fingel]

Thanks Helen,
Your knowledge of 8mm is proving invaluable. Those Kodak data sheets were great to read also. I was planning on at least trying to process my own film at least once and those sheets were a great resource.

Mine has the exposure table under the lens, it sounds like the calculator dial is more user friendly than the table. The table seem rather limited in the information it gives.

The info about the 152 degree shutter is good to know. Now I can use my hand held meter to measure the scene. It is calibrated for 180 but I can adjust the film asa on the meter to compensate for the difference.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[Helen B]

Scott,

Have you solved the mysteries of the viewfinder? When it is set to 12.5 mm, the inner frames show the field of view for 24 and 36 mm lenses. Once you 'zoom in' from 12.5 mm you lose that correlation. Which brings me to lenses. 24 or 25 mm Kern lenses are very very rare in D-mount (the native mount of your Bolex). They are slightly less rare from other manufacturers in D-mount, and ten a penny in C-mount (normal lens f/l for 16 mm, common mount for 16 mm cameras). C to D adapters are also common enough.

You can get an f/0.9 13 mm Kern Switar lens in D-mount and an f/0.95 (Angenieux, also sold as Bell & Howell) or f/1.1 (Kern Switar) 25 mm lens in C-mount.

There are Kern 5.5 mm and 6.5 mm lenses available. These need an extra lens that swings over the viewfinder, unless you have the top-of-the-range viewfinder that incorporates the conversion lens.

Hopefully that gives you an idea of what a special camera you have got. Someone, whose name will come to me at 2 am, had the notion that all movie cameras and all movie projectors were just parts of a single machine that was distributed all over the world, connecting eye to eye.

Theatre is life, film is art and television is furniture.

Best,
Helen

 

[SkipA]

Incredible timing on this thread- I have a friend who has the 8mm bug- I stupidly told him that I could probably figure out a way to process his BW myself...anyone ever taken a crack at it?

I process black and white movie film regularly, mostly super 8, sometimes 16mm. I've developed about 1000 feet of Plus-X and a 100 or so feet of Tri-x within the past six months. Plus-X is a beautiful film. I'm not as fond of the Tri-X because of the larger grain. I just bought some regular 8mm Fomapan from J&C for my Bolex H8, and I'll be shooting and processing it within the next couple of weeks. This will be my first time to try Fomapan. I've heard that it is a nice film, with grain somewhere between Plus-X and Tri-X, and a beautiful tone. I'll find out soon.

The Plus-X, Tri-X, and Fomapan are reversal processed, and so there are a couple more steps required than the negative processing you're probably more familiar with. Still, it's quite easy to do. The only complicating factor is having to deal with 50 to 100 foot lengths of film, particularly when hanging it up to dry.

There are a number of processing methods that can be employed, but for maximum consistency and minimum emulsion damage, I recommend using a Russian Lomo spiral reel tank. The Morse G3 rewind processor is another good choice, but more tedious to use than the Lomo tank.

I mix Kodak D-94 first developer, R-9 bleach, and CB-2 clearing bath from bulk chemicals. The recommended second developer is D-95, but Dektol works fine too, and is what I use. Any hardening fixer will do.

If you're interested, I'd be happy to post the formulas and processing procedure for you, and answer any questions you might have.

 

[SkipA]

Helen, I see that you posted the H24 module 15 link. Kodak appears to have updated it since the copy I saved a couple of years ago.

The D-94 formula that used to be in that module has been replaced with D-94A, and the R-9 bleach has been replaced with R-10. The Kodak web site states that Plus-X and Tri-X are both one stop faster when processed in D-94A. New Kodak Black and White Reversal Films

So you must match your choice of developer and bleach to film speed. Plus-X, for example, should be rated at the old speed of 50 ASA if you plan to develop in D-94, and at 100 ASA if using D-94A. Super 8 shooters who rely on the cartridge notch-actuated auto exposure feature of some Super 8 cameras may be in for a surprise!

 

[Helen B]

Skip,

That's a useful warning. The change happened a year ago (if my memory isn't playing tricks) so there's still plenty of room for confusion.

Best,
Helen

 

[fingel]

Skip, since you process your own, what do you do when you are finished and need to slit the film. I've been looking for a film slitter but have only seen ones for minox films. Did you build something or did you find a ready made slitter out there somewhere? I would like to try the J&C Foma 8mm film in DR5, but would have to slit it myself.

 

[Helen B]

Scott,
Film slitters came with both my Lomo tanks, but they are available separately. There's one for sale here on the Marriotts' site.

Here are some D-I-Y plans.

Best,
Helen

 

[SkipA]

Scott, I don't have a splitter yet. Up until now, I've shot and developed Super 8 and regular 16mm, exclusively. Neither of those require splitting. Super 8 is already in 8mm width. The Fomapan DR8 that I just purchased from J&C is my first foray into regular 8mm film.

John from J&C told me a few months ago that he has, or can order, slitters to cut the 16mm DR8 down to 8mm. I don't see them listed on the J&C web site, but I'll ask him about it and order one from him, if possible.

You can also get them from Olexandr Kalynychenko at Russian cine and photo cameras. You can also order Lomo spiral tanks from him. He is friendly and reliable, but shipping will be high, as he ships from Russia.

The link that Helen posted to Martin Baumgarten's slitter-building page is pretty cool, too. Only I suspect that a roller slitter will be more precise than a razor blade slitter.

 

[removed account4]

hi scott -

there used to be a guy named ray pepalis who advertised at the subclub.org site (submini cameras) he made and sold film slitters for the submini crowd. i was going to get a slitter to cut 35mm film to 110 a few years ago and it was going to be about $50.

i looked around the site to see if i could find the link and post it here for you ...
but couldn't find the link - i come across his name and addy - i'll post it for you - the slitters he made were really nice ...

 

[SkipA]

Ray's site is here, Building a slitter

Very detailed instructions, GREAT diagrams. It's a flatbed design intended to slit short fixed lengths of film for reloading into Minox cartridges. You wouldn't want to use that exact design for 25 to 100 foot lengths of DR8, but Ray's lucid treatment of issues related to slitting film and his detailed construction tips are well worth reading.

 

[SkipA]

By the way, the filmshooting web site forum is a good place to learn more about small guage cinematography. The forum is smaller than this one and not as well organized, but there is a good community atmosphere there with lots of friendly and helpful people who are knowledgeable about cinematography.