1999 E6 as B+W neg (Rodinal) ?

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by jtk, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. jtk

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    I've got a bunch of 1999 Fujichrome 120 ...wonder if anybody here has successfully processed it as B+W? What's it look like when printed?

    I'll try with Rodinal 1+100 60min stand because that's what I do. Any experience or suggestion? Ridiculous?
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  2. Rudeofus

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    I have seen E6/C-41 film stock with a silver based anti-halation layer, and in this case you'd get image plus rather high base density. If you want to test for this, take an undeveloped test clip and throw it into fixer: if it doesn't clear, then B&W development will hardly give useful results.

    I have processed expired E6 film in regular E6 process chemistry a couple of times: a few years expiration doesn't do much, after that film starts losing speed. 20 years expired gave me heavy red fog and very low contrast. If you overexpose this old E6 film by a few stops, then run it through C-41, or even better, ECN-2 process (which uses correct color developer), you have a chance of getting negatives which can be turned into decent images in a hybrid process.
     
  3. koraks

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    Really? I'm highly surprised by this because firstly, silver is a not very useful antihalation material and secondly it's unnecessary expensive for the purpose.
     
  4. Anon Ymous

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    IDK about antihalation filter using silver, but IIRC all colour films have a silver based (Cary Lea) filter. You get a strange looking yellow film if you dip it in fixer.

    Silver itself is a very small part of the cost of film.
     
  5. Rudeofus

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    Silver can build up very high densities, ask anyone in the B&W forum. Also, if you think silver is expensive, check out prices for photographically compatible dyes, compared to those even gold is a bargain basement compound.
     
  6. koraks

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    https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/carey-lea-silver.41473/ Here it is discussed that colloidal silver can indeed be used as a yellow filter and as AH backing. However, since that is colloidal silver, it should not develop and contribute to fog. Due to its light color, neither would it contribute much to fog. In addition, it is not clear to what extent the use of silver as an AH compound is/was usual.

    Colloidal silver does not create much density at all (yes, I know silver can create much density; it kind of comes with the casual habit of making salted paper prints from silver negatives). In an antihalation layer, density is also not the primary goal; it's the reduction of internal reflections that is more important. Density can be useful to prevent light from bouncing against the pressure plate in the camera, but it does not necessarily contribute to reduction of light piping. As to the costs - you seem to know more than I do; if you can inform me on the relative costs of dyes and colloidal silver, I'd certainly be interested from a viewpoint of general curiosity.

    Long story short, it's not clear to me how colloidal silver would contribute to fog and to what extent it has been used in this application.
     
  7. Anon Ymous

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    In this context, "fog" isn't something that is created by development, but something that was already there. It is quite significant and undesirable from what I've seen. There might be a way to remove it by using a bleach before development, but I don't know how well it will work and it will certainly complicate things. Anyway, IMHO, cross processing in C41 is the most interesting use of these old films.
     
  8. koraks

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    Certainly. Still, I have developed several rolls of C41 film s B&W and while the negatives were far from ideal, they yielded presentable prints. There's no reason why the basic principle wouldn't work in OP's case. He'll get an image. Will it be ideal? Obviously not. But he's probably not after perfection.

    It would also affect the image-forming silver, most likely. Compare to Kachel's SLIMT technique.
     
  9. Rudeofus

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    You can address fog by changing FD composition, but it would probably take a test or two to fine tune the amounts of extra bromide and iodide, and to also fine tune FD time to get contrast correct and to determine required increase in exposure. It may be worthwhile, if someone has lots of time, many rolls to test with, and it willing to accept the resulting speed loss.
     
  10. Anon Ymous

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    Oh, yes, you can reduce fog by adjusting FD. I was replying to this sentence by koraks, which I didn't clearly quote:
    Unless I had a case of brainfart, koraks refers to density increase due to the Cary Lea silver layer as fog. Well, technically speaking this might not be the correct term (increased minimum density due to silver layer is perhaps better), but that's what I understood.
     
  11. koraks

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    No brainfart, that is what I meant. But with the added clarification that the colloidal silver (Carey Lee) can be either in the yellow filter layer or the AH layer, or both. How much density this adds? Always a bit, but my guess is it won't be all that much.
     
  12. OP
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    jtk

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    I'm impressed by the technical spin-offs here, HOWEVER I do hope someone has read the OT and has tried processing E6 as B&W. I'm guessing that if it can't be done by stand-processed Rodinal, it can't be done.
     
  13. Rudeofus

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    @jtk : I stated clearly how to test whether it's possible. Do a fixer clip test to see what kind of base density you will get. If that works for you, you can go from there.
     
  14. OP
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    jtk

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    Thanks, but that doesn't answer my question.

    I guessed that since Photrio has some film enthusiasts, and since many play with very-outdated-film, someone might have direct experience.
     
  15. awty

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    If the fixer wont clear the film, then the process wont work. The image will be very dense and probably blotchy. You may need to use a bleach to get any usable result.
    Thats my limited understanding.
    I have some old transparency film as well, might have a crack at it one day.
     
  16. koraks

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    Of course it will work; any E6 emulsion is silver-based so you will get an image. The only issue is that it is unknown if you will end up with added overall density and if so, how much. I'd just try a roll and see how it goes.
     
  17. OP
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    jtk

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    Thanks gents !
     
  18. Rudeofus

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    The lack of reactions would indicate to me, that silver layers are a common thing in E6 products, and that developing E6 in B&W developer won't work (i.e. will give very dense results). I don't know whether your particular E6 stock material works, but gave you a trivial procedure to find out.
     
  19. awty

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    Could you use a bleach in between developing and fixing to cut down the density
     
  20. koraks

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    Yes of course. It'll also bleach the image. So not a very good idea.
     
  21. awty

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    Fair enough. Best try with colour processes to get something usable.
     
  22. thuggins

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    First, why would you want to do this rather than processing it as E-6? I'm assuming you are concerned with degradation of the dye couplers. It would seem that funky colors would be a more interesting result than what you're proposing.

    So you want to go from FD to Fix, bypassing the Color Developer and Bleach? You could do this with ordinary E-6 chemistry, or presumably B&W chemistry as well. But you'll be left with all the chromogenic elements of the film. Whether the "base" is even transparent at that point is the question.
     
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